More Scandal in the Wider Buddhist Sangha ...

[Ryumon]

Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.

While I am very much against the death penalty, I do agree that they should suffer the most serious of punishment. None of this begging forgiveness and starting over; as you say, the rate of recidivism is very high.

I also wonder about the validity of the teachings of these people; the Buddhists who have been sexual harassers and abusers. Can they be taken as legitimate knowing that their authors have committed very grave violations of the precepts? Again, the whole "crazy wisdom" thing seems like a way to excuse the abuses and exaggerations of Tibetan lamas; I find it hard to accept any such teachings as valid.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Ryumon]

That's not quite correct. He didn't sexually abuse anyone, but he caused a great deal of direct harm in the course of covering up his cheating. He destroyed people's careers and livelihoods, some bankrupted by legal fees when he sued them, he got others blacklisted from pro cycling (both riders and support staff) and fired from their jobs, and he even sank a successful bike manufacturing business. He orchestrated pr campaigns to turn people whose careers he ruined into public pariahs. He had people harrass and threaten his accusers and, notably, their families. He harmed people.

I don't deny that he caused a great deal of harm, but I think sexual abuse is a very different level of harm. (I follow cycling, having lived in France, and seen the Tour de France go in front of my home several times. And my son was devastated when the truth came out about Armstrong, and tore up the autograph he had obtained.)

Gassho,

Kirk

[Jishin]

Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyoshin]

(The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)

That's not quite correct. He didn't sexually abuse anyone, but he caused a great deal of direct harm in the course of covering up his cheating. He destroyed people's careers and livelihoods, some bankrupted by legal fees when he sued them, he got others blacklisted from pro cycling (both riders and support staff) and fired from their jobs, and he even sank a successful bike manufacturing business. He orchestrated pr campaigns to turn people whose careers he ruined into public pariahs. He had people harrass and threaten his accusers and, notably, their families. He harmed people.
Gassho
Nick



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[Jishin]

All due respect, but sexual abuse is not just a "mistake," it's not something to be shrugged off by saying that we are all bad (or that we are all sinners). Yes, things have changed, and what was once swept under the rug is now being dealt with as it should be, but the example of the Catholic church enabling pedophiles and abusers for decades, even centuries, shows that this is not just a "say you're sorry and move on" incident. These organizations need to be very firm, and in many ways the choice of this organization to dissolve is probably the best thing. (The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)

I have no experience with this sort of thing; I'm not reacting as one who has been abused. But there are some things that cannot be easily forgiven. This person - about whom I know little, other than a few articles I'd read over the years in the Buddhist press - apparently was not qualified to be a teacher, and was enabled by a certain level of fame that came from his popularity with a small percentage of people interested in Buddhism. He almost certainly helped a lot of people, but others certainly knew what was going on and enabled him.

A lot of this comes from putting people on a pedestal and granting them a certain amount of freedom to do what they want, sometimes under the cover of calling it "crazy wisdom." You can rationalize almost everything. He may be able to rehabilitate himself. But he should never be in a position of authority again.

Gassho,

Kirk

All humans are capable of bad acts. The bad deeds need to be addressed to ensure they are not repeated.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ryumon]

We are all bad. We are all good.

We all make mistakes, that is part of being human.

All due respect, but sexual abuse is not just a "mistake," it's not something to be shrugged off by saying that we are all bad (or that we are all sinners). Yes, things have changed, and what was once swept under the rug is now being dealt with as it should be, but the example of the Catholic church enabling pedophiles and abusers for decades, even centuries, shows that this is not just a "say you're sorry and move on" incident. These organizations need to be very firm, and in many ways the choice of this organization to dissolve is probably the best thing. (The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)

I have no experience with this sort of thing; I'm not reacting as one who has been abused. But there are some things that cannot be easily forgiven. This person - about whom I know little, other than a few articles I'd read over the years in the Buddhist press - apparently was not qualified to be a teacher, and was enabled by a certain level of fame that came from his popularity with a small percentage of people interested in Buddhism. He almost certainly helped a lot of people, but others certainly knew what was going on and enabled him.

A lot of this comes from putting people on a pedestal and granting them a certain amount of freedom to do what they want, sometimes under the cover of calling it "crazy wisdom." You can rationalize almost everything. He may be able to rehabilitate himself. But he should never be in a position of authority again.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Meitou]

I thought thishttp://hardcorezen.info/sex-and-drugs-and-buddhism/5962 blog post by Brad Warner was very good, as it takes a broader look at the sex/drugs controversies in relation to the precepts. As an aside I thought it was quite worrying that Warner considers he may be a lone voice in speaking out against the drugs issue (and Lion's Roar) and that he will pay for his stance.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday

[Kyoshin]

As a Catholic I’m so disgusted by the Church hierarchy I am looking to leave. The question for me is to try to find another Christian community to join or to do Jukai with you all and take the precepts focus on my meditation practice. These scandals aren’t helping me either, but as Jundo points out, they seem to be on a different scale of magnitude. I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.

Gassho
Sat Today, Jason


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Hi Jason,
As a fellow Catholic (nominally, anyway; I keep a virgin Mary next to my Buddha) I'm with you as far as disgust in the Catholic hierarchy goes. You're definitely not alone there. I don't know if you are aware, but there are Independent Catholic churches that exist because priests and bishops are just as disgusted as you and have left the hierarchy. Some, like the Liberal Catholic Church, have been around for 100 years, some are more recent. They tend to be hyperlocal, but some are bigger, and they run the gamut from "stuck in 1752" conservative to "I don't think that counts as Catholic anymore" progressive and everything in between. Full disclosure: one of my best friends is a priest in the American National Catholic Church (one of the bigger Independent Catholic churches), and I attended his parish regularly when I still lived nearby. Anyway, I'm not trying to evangelize, but I've heard over and over Catholics say something like "I wish I had a place to go and still be Catholic, but I can't be associated with the hierarchy." Options exist, but most of them are terrible at getting the word out. Just thought I'd toss that out there in case you're interested
Gassho,
Nick
Satlah

EDIT: Just in case my intentions aren't clear, I'm REALLY not trying to evangelize, just point out the existence of things interested parties may not be aware of. If this post is inappropriate, please let me know and I'll delete.

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[Jundo]

... I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.

Yes, well, can't really get away from the dark side of human nature even there.

The Precepts help us navigate through this difficult, sometimes ugly, world. Our Practice allows us to see through both the beautiful and the ugly, yet the ugly remains.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-14/historic-sex-abuse-allegations-at-hobarts-friends-school/9147126

Gassho, J

STLAH

[Jippou]

As a Catholic I’m so disgusted by the Church hierarchy I am looking to leave. The question for me is to try to find another Christian community to join or to do Jukai with you all and take the precepts focus on my meditation practice. These scandals aren’t helping me either, but as Jundo points out, they seem to be on a different scale of magnitude. I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.

Gassho
Sat Today, Jason


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[Jundo]

Personally, as disappointed as I am that Noah Levine seems to have engaged in sexual misconduct, I'm even more disappointed that his organization, which by all accounts has done great work, is shutting down because one guy acted like jerk. I would have hoped that they could follow the example of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, when they booted Lance, changed their name, and kept right on doing good work.
Gassho
Nick
Sat

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I have the feeling that is really what will happen, but with folks going various directions.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Kyoshin]

Personally, as disappointed as I am that Noah Levine seems to have engaged in sexual misconduct, I'm even more disappointed that his organization, which by all accounts has done great work, is shutting down because one guy acted like jerk. I would have hoped that they could follow the example of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, when they booted Lance, changed their name, and kept right on doing good work.
Gassho
Nick
Sat

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[Jundo]

Let me add this, perhaps dangerous to say in this wonderful time when #metoo is front and center (as it should have been long ago).

Not all these scandals are the same.

Fortunately, as far as I know, there have been no cases in the Zen world of child abuse that have come to light. I see no evidence that, like the Catholic Church, pedophiles are particularly drawn to Buddhism as their were to the Catholic clergy. There have been cases that appear to involve young monastic boys in the traditional Tibetan world even recently, and it may have gone on between monks and young acolytes in the Zen monasteries in centuries past (however, as disgusting as it is to us, especially in modern times, it was more socially acceptable in ancient times in Asia. That is just a fact. Fortunately, it is now not acceptable.). I am not saying that such people are not out there now, but I know of no such cases.

There have been few cases in the Soto Zen world apart from Baker Roshi of SFZC, whose falling down was an affair with a married woman who was a student and the wife of a friend, and who was otherwise a bit of a megalomaniac. I don't believe that he slept with other students except that one case. Sorry, I think it is wrong that we include that scandal, apparently between consenting and mature adults, in the same basket as others even if it is wrong to sleep with a student.

Maezumi Roshi was an alcoholic (a medical condition that even Buddhist masters can suffer) who, especially when drunk, slept with several female students. Katagiri Roshi seems to have gotten sexually involved with a student or students at a certain period.

Affairs between balanced, mature, free thinking, consenting adults are one thing even if students (grown adults sometimes fall in love, but even so, I do not believe it should be permitted during an ongoing teacher-student relationship even then. Most Zen Sangha now have a 6 month cooling off period after the teacher-student relationship ends.). Taking advantage of the position and weight of being teacher to manipulate psychologically vulnerable students is another thing altogether. The cases are not the same, although both unacceptable.

At the other extreme, the Rinzai teachers Shimano and Sasaki engaged in groping, coercion of the psychologically vulnerable, that went on for decades.

Trungpa and his son, in their "Shambhala" Kingdom, and this Sogyal fellow, were really out of control with alcohol, sexual and psychological abuse.



Do not lump Baker Roshi with the rapists and abusers, for example.

We do not know yet where Noah Levine falls on this scale.

As well, do not forget the hundreds of good teachers who cause no harm, live gently and only help sentient beings, so grab no headlines. Sorry, a few bad apples do not spoil the orchard. Some may disagree.

Nonetheless, let us never let our guard down, and let us continue to study and live the Precepts to keep us from doing harm to self and others.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shinshi]

He fell down. He should immediately get back up again, reflect and make amends, start from "Day 1."

Is that not the way of refuge and recovery?

Apparently, he got over the drugs and drink, but still had sex issues. I think that getting over the drugs and drink alone is reason to celebrate, even if he obviously had remaining and serious failings in other aspects of his life and psychology. He is not and never was a "saint," only a flawed human being who found a path to getting over most (not all) of his flaws. He let people and himself down in some (not all) ways. He obviously needs a bit more work in other aspects. I anticipate that he will come through this with time. I am most concerned for anyone else, such as you express, who might feel let down somehow. That is not an excuse for saying that the program was not a success even though some battles were lost.

Let me also caution that me do not yet know the details of what transpired.

Let us sit and offer Metta for anyone else, innocent bystanders, who might be hurt in some way too.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

As I’ve mentioned before, Refuge Recovery is the reason I’m here. I got sober nearly 3 years ago with the help of Refuge Recovery. I’ve started 2 Refuge groups and facilitated a meeting every week for the past 2 and a half years. Until I found Treeleaf, Refuge was my primary Buddhist practice. So this has been a big part of my life for a while now. I don’t think it’s exaggerating to say I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t read Noah’s book when I did. And I know the same is true for thousands of addicts who have been helped by the book that has his name on it and the organization he founded.

I have a lot of feelings about it. Right this second, it’s a lot of anger. Noah was in a position to help so many people, and he squandered it. I don’t know the details of his misconduct, the allegations were never made public, but his reaction to them and his actions since show pretty clearly that he’s more interested in helping himself than in helping the community. Right or wrong, a lot of folks in a very vulnerable state did look to him as a source of wisdom, and now they’re left wondering what to do.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

He fell down. He should immediately get back up again, reflect and make amends, start from "Day 1."

Is that not the way of refuge and recovery?

Apparently, he got over the drugs and drink, but still had sex issues. I think that getting over the drugs and drink alone is reason to celebrate, even if he obviously had remaining and serious failings in other aspects of his life and psychology. He is not and never was a "saint," only a flawed human being who found a path to getting over most (not all) of his flaws. He let people and himself down in some (not all) ways. He obviously needs a bit more work in other aspects. I anticipate that he will come through this with time. I am most concerned for anyone else, such as you express, who might feel let down somehow. That is not an excuse for saying that the program was not a success even though some battles were lost.

Let me also caution that me do not yet know the details of what transpired.

Let us sit and offer Metta for anyone else, innocent bystanders, who might be hurt in some way too.

Gassho, J

STLah