More Scandal in the Wider Buddhist Sangha ...

[Daitetsu]

For those interested in this matter, Noah Levine has now responded with a statement in which he denies the allegations:

https://www.lionsroar.com/against-the-stream-confirms-sexual-misconduct-by-noah-levine-centers-to-shut-down/

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[Tai Shi]

I am so relieved that I have taken my vows with the precepts when I read some of this. Much of the commentary scares me to the very fibers of my femurs, and I've had two knee replacements, the anger and even rage I read here is close to murder. The first precept is observed in my life, and though I eat meat, by the way I AM also a Christian; As a Buddhist I have found myself pounding the keyboard when I type, so to step back and say I try to bless my morning meal. I am concerned with the level of anger, focused on sex offenders, and as a boy of six I first remember my mother explaining what the teenage boy had done to the little kid right next to his house, and this one right out in the open of his driveway. I was scared to death as I watched the teen being led to the patrol car, and in handcuffs, I had seen this action performed on TV, but see I was innocent. I didn't see the gravity of this. I was after all I was six-years-old. Yes, by this age the serious nature of this act was pounded into my little skull, so what's next for a six-year-old; is the sanctity of life treated thus, as we treat the ears of a six-year-old boy that his own parts might be violated, this memory brings me to tears, and as an adult the tears start to form then held back, and just as a little boy I am grateful my mom won't (didn't) let this happen to me, and I now I look on in horror.

Gassho
Tai Shi
st-lah

[Zenmei]

I have also advised child abuse and like victims that one can let the past go AND honor and recognize the past, feel the pain of old physical and mental scars, at the same time. Yes, one can forgive, yet honor the fact that parts of oneself may not be able to totally forgive, at once. Forgive and not forgive at once. I think that better than either pretending that one must always be a complete saint and fully forgiving, or at the other extreme, someone drowning in anger and resentment. In Zen, we can do seemingly contradictory things like that at once, as if on different channels of our feeling.

Very much so. I think sometimes there’s this idea that forgiving is a thing you do once and then you’re done with it, but it’s a process. Especially with the big stuff. It comes and goes. One day you’re fine with it, the next you’re angry again. That doesn’t mean you’ve failed at forgiveness, it just means human emotions are complex.

One of the things I love about Zen is that it embraces that complexity, acknowledges that yeah, sometimes I hate you and I love you at the same time. And that’s okay.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

[Jundo]

I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

I wouldn't necessarily say "incomplete", but yes, kind of. When I talk about forgiveness, I'm usually only talking about letting go of resentment and anger. This kind of forgiveness doesn't require atonement or making amends. It's unconditional and one-sided. I can forgive you without you ever knowing about it. We often have to be able to forgive without ever interacting with the person we're forgiving. In cases of abuse or other serious harm, it may not be wise to have this person in our lives. Sometimes we need to forgive someone who's passed on. We can do this, because this part of forgiveness is only about how we relate to our own thoughts and feelings.

But that doesn't say anything at all about our relationship with the other person. We can forgive someone and choose never to speak to them again. In order to repair our relationship, I may have to show you that I understand how I've hurt you, and show you that I understand how not to hurt you in the future. That kind of atonement or making amends may be necessary for healing a relationship, and it may make forgiveness easier, but I think it's separate from forgiveness.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

Two very wise viewpoints.

As hard as it is, in Buddhism, we generally say that there are no "bad people," only people who act badly because of the disease of excess desire, anger or divided thinking (ignorance) that infects them within, the Karma that brought them to that place. There but for the grace of Buddha go I.

That said, we may still have to punish wrongdoers legally and socially in civil society.

Yes, the wrongdoer should atone and seek to make amends as they can, but the recipient of the harm should try to forgive nonetheless whether they do or not.

I have also advised child abuse and like victims that one can let the past go AND honor and recognize the past, feel the pain of old physical and mental scars, at the same time. Yes, one can forgive, yet honor the fact that parts of oneself may not be able to totally forgive, at once. Forgive and not forgive at once. I think that better than either pretending that one must always be a complete saint and fully forgiving, or at the other extreme, become someone drowning in anger and resentment. In Zen, we can do seemingly contradictory things like that at once, as if on different channels of our feeling. So, recognize that there may be a deep part of the brain that may always feel hurt and anger at violence done to oneself or those one loves, and honor that fact, but also rise above it and let it go too. I feel that our Buddhist Ancestors (especially in the Mahayana) were still human beings who did not learn to escape all human emotions, but to tame and honor them ... like people who kept the fires burning in the hearth rather than burning down the house.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Zenmei]

But I have also heard (in Buddhist context more than anywhere else) - atonement . Forgiveness without atonement (or in other way around) is incomplete, no?

I wouldn't necessarily say "incomplete", but yes, kind of. When I talk about forgiveness, I'm usually only talking about letting go of resentment and anger. This kind of forgiveness doesn't require atonement or making amends. It's unconditional and one-sided. I can forgive you without you ever knowing about it. We often have to be able to forgive without ever interacting with the person we're forgiving. In cases of abuse or other serious harm, it may not be wise to have this person in our lives. Sometimes we need to forgive someone who's passed on. We can do this, because this part of forgiveness is only about how we relate to our own thoughts and feelings.

But that doesn't say anything at all about our relationship with the other person. We can forgive someone and choose never to speak to them again. In order to repair our relationship, I may have to show you that I understand how I've hurt you, and show you that I understand how not to hurt you in the future. That kind of atonement or making amends may be necessary for healing a relationship, and it may make forgiveness easier, but I think it's separate from forgiveness.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

[Sekishi]

In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."

That says it so much more succinctly than my wordy mess. Thank you Zenmei.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat

[Jishin]

I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

IMG_0141.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Eva]

In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

Thank you for the comments ,
the whole issue is very "new" to me, so I only join in from theoretical viewpoint .
I have heard and have reflected on compassion, forgiveness, suffering . All formidable as idea and more so, as practice .
But I have also heard (in Buddhist context more than anywhere else) - atonement . Forgiveness without atonement (or in other way around) is incomplete, no?

gassho, eva
sattoday and also LAH

[Zenmei]

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

[Meitou]

I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

Meitou
satwithyoualltoday/lah

[Sekishi]

Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.

I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

[Meikun]

Can they be taken as legitimate knowing that their authors have committed very grave violations of the precepts? Again, the whole "crazy wisdom" thing seems like a way to excuse the abuses and exaggerations of Tibetan lamas; I find it hard to accept any such teachings as valid.

Dharma is dharma.

[Meikun]

I feel like this should be a reminder to all that to not give your power away to anyone. Trust lightly those who claim to have "the answers."

Noah deserves our compassion but he also deserves justice for what he has done. Everything has repercussions.

I hope all that have suffered under Noah, find some peace.

Meikun
Sat today _/\_

[Jishin]

As an aside:

We all have children, including those incarcerated. One of the first things that happen when a new inmate arrives is others want to see their file. What did they do to get there. Theft. Good! Assault and battery. Better. Lets not mess with this one. Murder. Most excellent. Maybe we can recruit this one for good stuff while incarcerated. Sex crimes? Watch out. I heard that they get held down and long held sexual tensions are released by other inmates. Lots of other inmates. Beatings follow. Lots of other special treatment occur. When the inmate gets smart enough he does anything to get better housing arrangements such as segregation. Nobody to bother you then. Maybe they deck a correctional officer everytime they see one or claim gang association. This will keep them in good standing with the segregation bunch. Segregation may keep the inmate alive but it's a nice place to go psychotic due to lack of sensory stimulation. After a while, the correctional powers that be may have pity and move the inmate to a special location where other sex abusers are housed. It looks bad if anyone dies while in custody. Honor amongst thieves. Mostly.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Kyoshin]

Everyone deserves compassion. But that doesn't mean letting them get away with tomfoolery, or shielding them from the consequences of their actions. Sometimes the compassionate thing to do for someone is to take them down or send them to jail. To take the example of Trungpa and "crazy wisdom" I think the rest of the Tibetan Buddhist establishment failed to show Trungpa compassion when they rationalized his nonsense and let him get away with it. Perhaps if they'd denounced him or shut him down or whatever, he'd have a few less horrors on his Karmic bar tab.

Things like crime and recidivism rates are pretty meaningless in isolation, and irrevocably tied to both national culture and, notably, the penal environment, among other factors. Japan, for example, has a lower incidence of sexual crimes than the us. Norway, where the concept of compassionate prison is taken to an extreme, has far lower recidivism rates than the us for all crimes. In the us, high recidivism rates are strongly correlated to traumas suffered in prison, to punitive rather than rehabilitative philosophies of prison, and the extreme difficulty of reintegrating into normal life upon release due to things like job discrimination, debt, and other factors. These things have been studied for decades but old school "tough on crime" does well at the polls despite the fact that its proven to not work. Never mind that American for-profit prison companies make a great deal of money from high recidivism rates, and tailor their practices accordingly, but that's a whole different story. If anything, more compassion is required.

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