More Scandal in the Wider Buddhist Sangha ...

[Meitou]

I thought thishttp://hardcorezen.info/sex-and-drugs-and-buddhism/5962 blog post by Brad Warner was very good, as it takes a broader look at the sex/drugs controversies in relation to the precepts. As an aside I thought it was quite worrying that Warner considers he may be a lone voice in speaking out against the drugs issue (and Lion's Roar) and that he will pay for his stance.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday

[Ryumon]

We are all bad. We are all good.

We all make mistakes, that is part of being human.

All due respect, but sexual abuse is not just a "mistake," it's not something to be shrugged off by saying that we are all bad (or that we are all sinners). Yes, things have changed, and what was once swept under the rug is now being dealt with as it should be, but the example of the Catholic church enabling pedophiles and abusers for decades, even centuries, shows that this is not just a "say you're sorry and move on" incident. These organizations need to be very firm, and in many ways the choice of this organization to dissolve is probably the best thing. (The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)

I have no experience with this sort of thing; I'm not reacting as one who has been abused. But there are some things that cannot be easily forgiven. This person - about whom I know little, other than a few articles I'd read over the years in the Buddhist press - apparently was not qualified to be a teacher, and was enabled by a certain level of fame that came from his popularity with a small percentage of people interested in Buddhism. He almost certainly helped a lot of people, but others certainly knew what was going on and enabled him.

A lot of this comes from putting people on a pedestal and granting them a certain amount of freedom to do what they want, sometimes under the cover of calling it "crazy wisdom." You can rationalize almost everything. He may be able to rehabilitate himself. But he should never be in a position of authority again.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Jishin]

All due respect, but sexual abuse is not just a "mistake," it's not something to be shrugged off by saying that we are all bad (or that we are all sinners). Yes, things have changed, and what was once swept under the rug is now being dealt with as it should be, but the example of the Catholic church enabling pedophiles and abusers for decades, even centuries, shows that this is not just a "say you're sorry and move on" incident. These organizations need to be very firm, and in many ways the choice of this organization to dissolve is probably the best thing. (The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)

I have no experience with this sort of thing; I'm not reacting as one who has been abused. But there are some things that cannot be easily forgiven. This person - about whom I know little, other than a few articles I'd read over the years in the Buddhist press - apparently was not qualified to be a teacher, and was enabled by a certain level of fame that came from his popularity with a small percentage of people interested in Buddhism. He almost certainly helped a lot of people, but others certainly knew what was going on and enabled him.

A lot of this comes from putting people on a pedestal and granting them a certain amount of freedom to do what they want, sometimes under the cover of calling it "crazy wisdom." You can rationalize almost everything. He may be able to rehabilitate himself. But he should never be in a position of authority again.

Gassho,

Kirk

All humans are capable of bad acts. The bad deeds need to be addressed to ensure they are not repeated.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyoshin]

(The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)

That's not quite correct. He didn't sexually abuse anyone, but he caused a great deal of direct harm in the course of covering up his cheating. He destroyed people's careers and livelihoods, some bankrupted by legal fees when he sued them, he got others blacklisted from pro cycling (both riders and support staff) and fired from their jobs, and he even sank a successful bike manufacturing business. He orchestrated pr campaigns to turn people whose careers he ruined into public pariahs. He had people harrass and threaten his accusers and, notably, their families. He harmed people.
Gassho
Nick



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[Jishin]

Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ryumon]

That's not quite correct. He didn't sexually abuse anyone, but he caused a great deal of direct harm in the course of covering up his cheating. He destroyed people's careers and livelihoods, some bankrupted by legal fees when he sued them, he got others blacklisted from pro cycling (both riders and support staff) and fired from their jobs, and he even sank a successful bike manufacturing business. He orchestrated pr campaigns to turn people whose careers he ruined into public pariahs. He had people harrass and threaten his accusers and, notably, their families. He harmed people.

I don't deny that he caused a great deal of harm, but I think sexual abuse is a very different level of harm. (I follow cycling, having lived in France, and seen the Tour de France go in front of my home several times. And my son was devastated when the truth came out about Armstrong, and tore up the autograph he had obtained.)

Gassho,

Kirk

[Ryumon]

Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.

While I am very much against the death penalty, I do agree that they should suffer the most serious of punishment. None of this begging forgiveness and starting over; as you say, the rate of recidivism is very high.

I also wonder about the validity of the teachings of these people; the Buddhists who have been sexual harassers and abusers. Can they be taken as legitimate knowing that their authors have committed very grave violations of the precepts? Again, the whole "crazy wisdom" thing seems like a way to excuse the abuses and exaggerations of Tibetan lamas; I find it hard to accept any such teachings as valid.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Kyoshin]

Everyone deserves compassion. But that doesn't mean letting them get away with tomfoolery, or shielding them from the consequences of their actions. Sometimes the compassionate thing to do for someone is to take them down or send them to jail. To take the example of Trungpa and "crazy wisdom" I think the rest of the Tibetan Buddhist establishment failed to show Trungpa compassion when they rationalized his nonsense and let him get away with it. Perhaps if they'd denounced him or shut him down or whatever, he'd have a few less horrors on his Karmic bar tab.

Things like crime and recidivism rates are pretty meaningless in isolation, and irrevocably tied to both national culture and, notably, the penal environment, among other factors. Japan, for example, has a lower incidence of sexual crimes than the us. Norway, where the concept of compassionate prison is taken to an extreme, has far lower recidivism rates than the us for all crimes. In the us, high recidivism rates are strongly correlated to traumas suffered in prison, to punitive rather than rehabilitative philosophies of prison, and the extreme difficulty of reintegrating into normal life upon release due to things like job discrimination, debt, and other factors. These things have been studied for decades but old school "tough on crime" does well at the polls despite the fact that its proven to not work. Never mind that American for-profit prison companies make a great deal of money from high recidivism rates, and tailor their practices accordingly, but that's a whole different story. If anything, more compassion is required.

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[Jishin]

As an aside:

We all have children, including those incarcerated. One of the first things that happen when a new inmate arrives is others want to see their file. What did they do to get there. Theft. Good! Assault and battery. Better. Lets not mess with this one. Murder. Most excellent. Maybe we can recruit this one for good stuff while incarcerated. Sex crimes? Watch out. I heard that they get held down and long held sexual tensions are released by other inmates. Lots of other inmates. Beatings follow. Lots of other special treatment occur. When the inmate gets smart enough he does anything to get better housing arrangements such as segregation. Nobody to bother you then. Maybe they deck a correctional officer everytime they see one or claim gang association. This will keep them in good standing with the segregation bunch. Segregation may keep the inmate alive but it's a nice place to go psychotic due to lack of sensory stimulation. After a while, the correctional powers that be may have pity and move the inmate to a special location where other sex abusers are housed. It looks bad if anyone dies while in custody. Honor amongst thieves. Mostly.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Meikun]

I feel like this should be a reminder to all that to not give your power away to anyone. Trust lightly those who claim to have "the answers."

Noah deserves our compassion but he also deserves justice for what he has done. Everything has repercussions.

I hope all that have suffered under Noah, find some peace.

Meikun
Sat today _/\_

[Meikun]

Can they be taken as legitimate knowing that their authors have committed very grave violations of the precepts? Again, the whole "crazy wisdom" thing seems like a way to excuse the abuses and exaggerations of Tibetan lamas; I find it hard to accept any such teachings as valid.

Dharma is dharma.

[Sekishi]

Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.

I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

[Meitou]

I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

Meitou
satwithyoualltoday/lah

[Zenmei]

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

[Eva]

In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

Thank you for the comments ,
the whole issue is very "new" to me, so I only join in from theoretical viewpoint .
I have heard and have reflected on compassion, forgiveness, suffering . All formidable as idea and more so, as practice .
But I have also heard (in Buddhist context more than anywhere else) - atonement . Forgiveness without atonement (or in other way around) is incomplete, no?

gassho, eva
sattoday and also LAH