Thoughts on Thoughts

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  • Michael Joseph
    Member
    • Mar 2017
    • 181

    Thoughts on Thoughts

    Hello everyone,

    I had an interesting experience during zazen this morning, and I wanted a little feedback. At the beginning, I was aware of thoughts arising. Following Jundo, I'll call them "cloud thoughts" because they appeared to arise from nowhere in particular. At this points, such thoughts are not a problem for me most of the time. I am aware of them, and I let them arise and pass like clouds without trying to examine them or wonder about their source. Then, later, I notice fore thoughts arising, but these were more troubling because I seemed to be actively creating them. I'll call these "umbrella thought" since I felt like I was opening them myself and, thus, obscuring the clear sky. Eventually, I settled down when I accepted the thoughts as they were, as though Buddha had opened an umbrella. I feel my practice has deepened over the summer thanks to spending more time with Jundo's talks, and this is the first time I've notice this phenomenon, so I was curious about whether or not others have experienced this--or am I just making distinctions where none exist. Thanks.

    Gassho,

    Michael Joseph

    STLAH
  • Shokai
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Mar 2009
    • 6912

    #2
    or am I just making distinctions where none exist.
    Hard to say; There is no good zazen and no bad zazen, there's just your zazen. Stop analyzing or questioning; just sit and enjoy the mind and the breeze.

    shokai

    stlah
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

    Comment

    • Alfaiate
      Member
      • Jul 2018
      • 22

      #3
      I seemed to be actively creating them. I'll call these "umbrella thought"


      Hi Michael, no umbrella thoughts on my sits.
      Just regular out of nowhere thoughts.

      What i get sometimes are "proto thoughts" wich are thoughts prior to beeing fully formed, they get effortlessly shut down before reaching to full blown thoughts.

      Do you get "proto thoughts"?

      Comment

      • Jakuden
        Member
        • Jun 2015
        • 6134

        #4
        Umbrella thoughts, proto thoughts, cloud thoughts, all just thoughts. Let them all come, and let them all go. Sometimes they may come more often or may vary in character, and that’s all equally Zazen.

        These are just thoughts from a novice priest, though [emoji4]

        Gassho
        Jakuden
        SatToday/LAH






        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 44421

          #5
          Hi,

          What Jakuden said.

          I think you may be thinking too much about thinking.

          Thoughts are just thoughts. Just don't grab on, and just sit. If finding yourself grabbed on, then just return to sitting. No big deal.

          It is like riding a child's bike, don't overanalyze. This is a radical "letting things be" practice, so just let it be without diving in.

          Gassho, J

          SatTodayLAH

          PS - Alfaiate, might I trouble you to post human face photo, and sign a human name to your posts? Thank you. No need to do the "satToday" yet, but we will ask that somewhere down the road. All this just helps us keep this place a bit more human and centered on practice.
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Shokai
            Dharma Transmitted Priest
            • Mar 2009
            • 6912

            #6
            Do you get "proto thoughts"?
            Don't know because I really try not to label them


            As Koun Franz reminds us, Don't push or Pull, just sit!!

            gassho,shokai
            合掌,生開
            gassho, Shokai

            仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

            "Open to life in a benevolent way"

            https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

            Comment

            • Mp

              #7
              Originally posted by Jakuden
              Umbrella thoughts, proto thoughts, cloud thoughts, all just thoughts. Let them all come, and let them all go. Sometimes they may come more often or may vary in character, and that’s all equally Zazen.

              These are just thoughts from a novice priest, though [emoji4]

              Gassho
              Jakuden
              SatToday/LAH
              Hey Michael,

              As all has said so far, thoughts are just thoughts. They are always there, sometime good, sometimes unwanted ... either way, just sit and allow the thoughts to just be thoughts - allow the clouds to just be clouds. =)

              Gassho
              Shingen

              Sat/LAH

              Comment

              • Meishin
                Member
                • May 2014
                • 903

                #8
                I am aware of them, and I let them arise and pass like clouds without trying to examine them or wonder about their source. Then, later, I notice fore thoughts arising, but these were more troubling because I seemed to be actively creating them
                Not only Zen Buddhism but also contemporary psychology denies the existence of this "I" that "creates" thoughts. As others have said here, thoughts simply arise [without some fictional mind-controller (I) generating them.] Trying to locate such a creature as "I" becomes a game of scrambling down the rabbit's hole. For each "I" that is found, another seems to stand behind it. Eventually there's just a matrix of modules that are vying for attention at any one moment. With practice, it's not even a matter of observing these thoughts. It's just awareness. Or as one person has said, "consciousness without an object."

                2-cents worth...

                Gassho
                Meishin
                Sat Today LAH
                Last edited by Meishin; 07-25-2018, 03:16 PM.

                Comment

                • Michael Joseph
                  Member
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 181

                  #9
                  Thank you all for your thoughts. It's nice to have so many people who can encourage "non-thinking." About all thoughts, I'll remember my mother's advice about wasps: "If you don't bother them, they won't bother you."

                  Gassho,

                  Michael

                  STLAH

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 44421

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Michael Joseph
                    Thank you all for your thoughts. It's nice to have so many people who can encourage "non-thinking." About all thoughts, I'll remember my mother's advice about wasps: "If you don't bother them, they won't bother you."

                    Gassho,

                    Michael

                    STLAH
                    That is right. No need to classify them as umbrella wasps or pre-wasps.

                    Folks sometimes get confused about how subtly simple this practice is, like walking and breathing.

                    Just don't dance with the thoughts, and let them go if finding oneself dancing. Don't judge the experience or anything in life, except with the following positive tone: Sit as the one place to be, one act to do, in the universe for that time of sitting. Sitting is the fulfillment of sitting.

                    Not much more to it than that.

                    Gassho, J

                    STLah
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Joyo

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jundo
                      That is right. No need to classify them as umbrella wasps or pre-wasps.

                      Folks sometimes get confused about how subtly simple this practice is, like walking and breathing.

                      Just don't dance with the thoughts, and let them go if finding oneself dancing. Don't judge the experience or anything in life, except with the following positive tone: Sit as the one place to be, one act to do, in the universe for that time of sitting. Sitting is the fulfillment of sitting.

                      Not much more to it than that.

                      Gassho, J

                      STLah
                      Very nice, thank you.

                      Gassho,
                      Joyo
                      sat today/lah

                      Comment

                      • Jishin
                        Member
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 4831

                        #12
                        You are doing a great job Michael! Keep it up. [emoji120]

                        Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

                        Comment

                        • Rich
                          Member
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 2622

                          #13
                          enjoy the open spaciousness of just sitting
                          [emoji120]

                          SAT/LAH

                          Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
                          _/_
                          Rich
                          MUHYO
                          無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                          https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                          Comment

                          • Michael Joseph
                            Member
                            • Mar 2017
                            • 181

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jundo
                            That is right. No need to classify them as umbrella wasps or pre-wasps.
                            I'd hate to grab hold of an umbrella wasp. [emoji50]

                            Gassho,

                            Michael

                            STLAH

                            Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

                            Comment

                            • Michael Joseph
                              Member
                              • Mar 2017
                              • 181

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jishin
                              You are doing a great job Michael! Keep it up. [emoji120]

                              Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
                              [emoji120]

                              Michael

                              STLAH

                              Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

                              Comment

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