Matter vs Reality and Huangbo

[WokiTheCat]

Just wondering if you think what Huangbo says in these quotes is in line with what Nishijima says in the following video.
.*..concepts are related to the senses; and, when feeling takes place, wisdom is shut out.

Huangbo Xiyun*

*The foolish reject what they see, not what they think; the wise reject what they think, not what they see.

Huangbo Xiyun*

https://youtu.be/MVZqIwOC7j4

On a sidenote, One thing that perplexes me is that as far as I know huangbo never taught meditation, so I'm not really sure what method he himself or his students exercised to "realize that nothing needs to be realized". Similiar to the same question "why meditate when we are already buddha" that sent Dogen on a quest to find the answer to, but dogen found it through the method of zazen. Not sure what huangbo did.

Thoughts?

Gassho,
Misha.

[Jishin]

Matter vs Reality and Huangbo

Hi,

Concepts reduce what is.

IMG_0218.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Hi Misha,

Nishijima, like most Mahayana Buddhists, believed that our experience of the world is created by some combination of "stuff out there" and the mind "in here" which senses and interprets sensory data about the "out there" stuff. Our experience of life and the world depends on that feedback loop. So, Nishijima liked to say that sometimes we think that the world is only the "stuff" (materialism) or just the inner "ideas" we have about things (idealism), but reality is to recognize the loop and see through it. I don't think that Nishijima was more precise than that about the question.

Huang Po said, according to Blofeld's translations (who used "Void" for the wholeness that is "Emptiness") ...

A: Not to seek is to rest tranquil. Who told you to eliminate anything? Look at the void in front of your
eyes. How can you produce it or eliminate it?
Q: If I could reach this Dharma, would it be like the void?
A: Morning and night I have explained to you that the Void is both One and Manifold. I said this as a
temporary expedient, but you are building up concepts from it.
Q: Do you mean that we should not form concepts as human beings normally do?
A: I have not prevented you; but concepts are related to the senses; and, when feeling takes place,
wisdom is shut out.
Q: Then should we avoid any feeling in relation to the Dharma?
A: Where no feeling arises, who can say that you are right?

I am not sure from this translation, but Huang Po seems to be saying that the wholeness that is "Emptiness" is the one and the many before your eyes (and your eyes too). It is better just to experience that fact than to make up concepts about it, just like it is better to drink tea than to philosophize about the idea of drinking tea. Experience reality before categories, feelings, judgments that analyze it. So, sometimes we have to talk about ideas like the "one/absolute" or the "many/individual things" because it is necessary for explaining, but then just get down to drinking the tea that is one and many. (Something strikes me that "feeling" is not the best translation, and maybe "emotional judgments" would be better? (I am just guessing here without seeing the original). Maybe then there is such unity that there is no separate "you" and "who" to say anything about it.

I cannot find the source of the following translation, and it does not appear to be Blofeld but, yes, maybe it is the same kind of point.

The foolish reject what they see, not what they think; the wise reject what they think, not what they see.

That said, note that Blofeld has been very much criticized for an extremely romantic translation and presentation of Huang Po. If you are interested in that, see what I wrote here about Prof. Wright's marvelous book ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16148-Question-Book-Dumoulin-s-Zen-Buddhism-A-History&p=222553&viewfull=1#post222553

One thing that perplexes me is that as far as I know huangbo never taught meditation

I don't think that is true, and I believe (like all of us) he taught practice on and off the cushion. He is quoted by Blofeld (again, "mind control" seems a terrible translation, but I don't know the original Kanji) ...

55 Q: But how can we prevent ourselves from falling into the error of making distinctions between this
and that?

A: By realizing that, though you eat the whole day through, no single grain has passed your lips; and
that a day's journey has not taken you a single step forward-also by uniformly abstaining from such
notions as 'self' and 'other'. DO NOT PERMIT THE EVENTS OF YOUR DAILY LIVES TO BIND
YOU, BUT NEVER WITHDRAW YOURSELVES FROM THEM. Only by acting thus can you earn
the title of 'A Liberated One'.

Never allow yourselves to mistake outward appearance for reality. Avoid the error of thinking in
terms of past, present and future. The past has not gone; the present is a fleeting moment; the future is
not yet to come. When you practice mind-control, [Zazen or dhyana.] sit in the proper position, stay
perfectly tranquil, and do not permit the least movement of your minds to disturb you. This alone is
what is called liberation. [From the burden of ever-renewed transitory existence.]

Blofeld himself says in the Introduction ...

Huang Po seems to have assumed that his audience knew something about this practice [of Zazen] --as most keen Buddhists do, of course.
He gives few instructions as to how to 'meditate', but he does tell us what to avoid. If, conceiving of the
phenomenal world as illusion, we try to shut it out, we make a false distinction between the 'real' and
the 'unreal'. So we must not shut anything out, but try to reach the point where all distinctions are seen
to be void, where nothing is seen as desirable or undesirable, existing or not existing. Yet this does not
mean that we should make our minds blank, for then we should be no better than blocks of wood or
lumps of stone; moreover, if we remained in this state, we should not be able to deal with the
circumstances of daily life or be capable of observing the Zen precept: 'When hungry, eat.' Rather, we
must cultivate dispassion, realizing that none of the attractive or unattractive attributes of things have
any absolute existence.

Anyway, don't get too caught up in chicken and egg arguments about what is "reality" and what comes first or second. Just Sit, look and be, get up and live.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - Really nice cartoon, Jishin!

[ChrisMa]

Very much enjoyed this thread. Gave me a different idea of Huangbo than the little bit I had come across before.

Always important to be reminded not to get caught up in making distinctions.

Better to drink tea than to philosophize about the idea of drinking tea.

Very useful words.

Gassho,

SatToday,

Chris