Zen and the basics of Buddhism

[Bill]

Hello everyone!

This is my first post here and I have to say I am so happy to have found this Sangha. I currently live in France but do not speak enough French to understand what is being talked about, so this is perfect for me!

I have studied/practiced Zen on and off for many years, mostly on my own and using books. It has been my experience that most books and websites discussing Zen rarely talk about the basics of Buddhism. For example, the four noble truths, the noble eightfold path, etc. Rather, most Zen resources seem to only discuss zazen. While I completely agree zazen is of primary importance (especially in Zen), I always wondered why the other aspects of Buddhism were so rarely discussed, and further, why there was so little discussion of how to integrate them into our lives.

I have to say I was very happy to see Jundo's series on the basics of Buddhism, but was curious if anyone else had this experience and what your thoughts are on it?

Best,

Bill

[Seishin]

Hi Bill and welcome.

Know what you mean about living in France, we've been here (Bass Normandie) for 6 years and although I can get by and my vocabulary keeps growing, my comprehension is the biggest problem and accents, like the UK, vary considerably.

As to your question, yes it sounds a familiar story. My introductions was via Zen Mind Beginners Mind, Three Pillars of Zen and Zen Training & Philosophy. I always felt these were fairly shallow on basic Buddhism and when returning I started to look a bit wider than Zen. I did find a very useful app which covered the "basics" in reasonable depth but for the life of me can't remember the title and its since been removed from my tablet. I also downloaded a similar pdf to my computer, which died 10 days ago after a burst pipe. I'll do some digging and see if I can find these again and provide links if successful.

BTW as a newbie here, you may not have seen Jundo recommended reads thread

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?5711-SUGGESTED-BOOK-MEDIA-LIST-for-TREELEAF-SANGHA

I've been slowly adding to my ebook collection over the last 18 months and found some very useful stuff here.

[Bill]

Hello Seishin!

VERY small world, I currently live about an hour and a half away from you in Rouen!

I actually ended up learning the basics of Buddhism through other books (Tibetan, etc), I'm just curious why Zen seems to push those to the background? Or at the least not talk more about how we can implement them into our daily lives.

Thanks for the reading list link...I just added 3 to my Kindle!

[Jundo]

Hi Bill,

I will give you a short opinion on why. The fundamentals of the Buddhist Teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, Dukkha and the Eightfold Path, Non-Self, Impermanence, Dependent Co-Origination, Non-Attachment, the "Middle Way" and many more such as Emptiness (a more Mahayana teaching) ... are basic to Zen and all forms of Buddhism.

It is just that, as the centuries passed, many Teachings and expressions developed in the Mahayana and Zen as elaborations to flesh out and express all that (The Mahayana Sutras, Perfection of Wisdom, Yogachara, Hua-yan, Koans and much much more) ... and express by not speaking (Zazen). So, many things to also think about ... and not think about, but the basics are all there too.

However, all that came later is an expression of the former.

By the way, I would hesitate to call "Theravadan" Buddhism more "Basic" or "Original" Buddhism than the Mahayana teachings. The reason is merely that all of us are 2500 years "down the road" from old Gautama Buddha. Though many folks have an image of "Theravadan" Buddhism as being "original", the truth is that it is also the product of centuries of evolution and doctrinal developments. I often write this when that subject comes up ...

[O]ne thing for folks to remember is that Buddhism did change and evolve over many centuries, as it passed from culture to culture in Asia. The Buddha lived 2500 years ago in ancient India, whereupon the philosophy passed to China 1000 years later, and then to someone like Master Dogen who lived about 1000 years after that in medieval Japan. You and I live in the strange world known as the 21st century. Certainly, some changes arose along the way in some important interpretations and outer forms. For example, the Chinese made Zen Practice very Chinese, the Japanese very medieval Japanese, and now we are making it very Western.

However, the Heart of the Buddha's teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Non-Self, Non-Attachment, the Middle Way, etc. etc., ... All are here now as much as there then!!

How?

On the one hand some outer stuff is, well, changed. For example, when Buddhism came to China it was heavily influenced by, and pretty much merged with, Taoism (not to mention that it was already "Mahayana Buddhism" by that time, a very different flavor from the original). The result was this little thing we now call "Zen Buddhism". So, congratulations, we are already "Taoists" and "Mahayana Buddhists" ... not just "Buddhists". When it got to Japan, the Japanese added Japanese culture to it. In the West, we are now making some very good changes (although we have to, of course, try to avoid bad changes). These good changes include equality of the sexes and a greater emphasis on lay practice.

But it is still Buddhism. What Dogen taught was Buddhism. What we do around Treeleaf (I do believe) is as Buddhism as Buddhism can be.

I happened to write this elsewhere today too ...

I am sometimes asked about Zen and its relationship to the "original" Teachings of the Buddha. So many Buddhists seem very concerned about this question of the "original Teachings." The Mahayana Buddhists, through the centuries, jumped through some hoops to prove their doctrines as the "original" and "greatest" (the "maha" or "mahayana") including stories of hidden Sutras guarded by Naga sentinals. Now, based on historical studies, we know that all of the Mahayana Sutras are likely the product of religiously inspired authors writing long after the days of the historical Buddha. Zen is also a later development in Buddhism, as Indian Teachings met the lens of Chinese culture and religious sentiment, further remixed in Japan, Korea, America, Europe and other places. Tibetan and other esoteric schools of Buddhism are also later developments. (It is also a misnomer to say that "Theravada" Buddhism is close to the historical Buddha because, while having elements that may be more closely based on the historical Buddha's original formulation, it is difficult to be sure and the Theravada has undergone very great change and reinterpretation of its Teachings and Practices at the hands of later commentators and teachers).

In any case, I am not so concerned with determining the "original." We should move on from this obsession with originalism. Here is what I usually say:

There are many flavors of Buddhism, none of them likely precisely the original historical Buddha's formulation, some of them much later adaptations (e.g., Mahayana Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Zen, and even much of the modern "Theravada"). However, why such concern to find the Founder's intent? Something later might even be better (we don't drive Henry Ford's cars or the Wright Brothers' planes today). It is kind of an obsession with Buddhists to feel that earlier is better, rather than finding refinement and improvement in some of what came later as in many forms of development and evolution. In fact, there are many good paths. Of course, I personally recommend the way of Master Dogen and Shikantaza, tried and true, and others here Practice other variations on a Zen theme. When one is sitting Zazen, one can realize the Buddha's Truth in one's own heart. I will tell you that, whether or not this Zen Path is the historical Buddha's or a later remix, it works and I will keep walking it. Whether or not my own Path is exactly in line with the historical Buddha's original formulations (in fact, I am sure it departs in some significant ways), it seems a solid Path and I will stay on it. It is a timeless Path, and it is the Buddha's Path as all drops away on the cushion.

Let me just add that, as far as I know historically, the Buddha's original focus on the "basics" of non-self, impermanence, Dukkha and its cure, and many other basic Teachings are alive and well in Zen Buddhism. We have our own approaches to those sometimes, as do other flavors of Buddhism. However, there are many good and nutritious ways to cook tomato soup, and all are based on the same tomatoes. It may not be the original recipe of the founder of this bistro, but it is a good and healthful soup.

Dogen was different from Shakyamuni Buddha, who are both different from all of us.

But when we are sitting a moment of Zazen ... perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... piercing Dukkha, attaining non-self, non-attached ... then there is not the slightest gap between each of us and the Buddha.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Getchi]

Gassho

Having come from a Thai Forest tradition I came here after learning about Chinese Ch'an Mahayana. I find that TL has helped many caring people become more compassionate and less self-attached. The truth of the Dharma here is something I have faith in.






Gassho
Than you

SatToday
LaH

[Bill]

I do want to apologize for one miscommunication on my part. It appears based on Jundo's response that by referencing the "basics" of Buddhism that some may interpret that as Theravada vs. Mahayana, or as a search for an original form of Buddhism. I actually did not mean that at all! When it comes to the different "styles" of Buddhism, I see it simply as different paths up the same mountain. Each person needs to find the way that suits them best.

When I used the term basic I was referencing the "Buddha-Basics" video that were linked in my welcome email (Found here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...-Buddha-Basics). What I was trying to say is that in my experience these teachings have generally been difficult to find while reading about Zen, or even at some Zen centers. I recall once going to an introductory class at a Zen center in my old hometown and there was no mention of anything outside of Zazen and how to bow and walk into the Zendo. In fact, during my entire time there I never once heard any discussion of these concepts. I just always found it a bit strange that I only found these teachings outside of Zen.

All of that said, can I just say that I LOVE that Treeleaf DOES include this series of teachings as I truly feel it helps one to have a general idea of what is going on in Buddhism. Thank you all so very much for the thoughtful comments!

[Ugrok]

Hi guys, a parenthesis : if you need any help with french in general, don't hesitate, send me a private message, i'll do my best.

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

[Jundo]

I do want to apologize for one miscommunication on my part. It appears based on Jundo's response that by referencing the "basics" of Buddhism that some may interpret that as Theravada vs. Mahayana, or as a search for an original form of Buddhism. I actually did not mean that at all! When it comes to the different "styles" of Buddhism, I see it simply as different paths up the same mountain. Each person needs to find the way that suits them best.

When I used the term basic I was referencing the "Buddha-Basics" video that were linked in my welcome email (Found here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...-Buddha-Basics). What I was trying to say is that in my experience these teachings have generally been difficult to find while reading about Zen, or even at some Zen centers.

I think I misunderstood or read too much into your question. In any case, the historical Buddha's early Teachings are all present and vital in Zen Practice, but we also have a couple of thousand years of developments after that to also talk about (and not talk about) as further expressions of those Teachings.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Bill]

Very true!

[Seishin]

Finally found the couple of items I mentioned, this was before finding Treeleaf ;

This apps a very high level view (mho) of the basics but I found it useful

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andromo.dev281819.app302335

And this is more about the "development" in Japan, I was getting very confused at the time knowing the difference between Rinzai and Soto and having reread the 3 books I bought years ago. I think this helped but in the mean time I stumbled here, not having the confidence to try the few local Sanghas within a hour of here. And also unwilling to pay up front try, followed by a monthly fee - guess all groups have their own way of doing things.

https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/guidejapanbuddhismbm6.pdf

After going through the Beginner's and Basic Buddhism "lessons" here and reading/hearing Jundo say effectively "be a good person, lead a good life, don't harm yourself or others, help others where you can" and his references to the different realms right here right now, let alone in the next life - this to me pretty much summed up the 8 Fold Path, without all the unnecessary labels. Maybe that's the Zen way of doing things, works for me.

[Bill]

Finally found the couple of items I mentioned, this was before finding Treeleaf ;

This apps a very high level view (mho) of the basics but I found it useful

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andromo.dev281819.app302335

And this is more about the "development" in Japan, I was getting very confused at the time knowing the difference between Rinzai and Soto and having reread the 3 books I bought years ago. I think this helped but in the mean time I stumbled here, not having the confidence to try the few local Sanghas within a hour of here. And also unwilling to pay up front try, followed by a monthly fee - guess all groups have their own way of doing things.

https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/guidejapanbuddhismbm6.pdf

After going through the Beginner's and Basic Buddhism "lessons" here and reading/hearing Jundo say effectively "be a good person, lead a good life, don't harm yourself or others, help others where you can" and his references to the different realms right here right now, let alone in the next life - this to me pretty much summed up the 8 Fold Path, without all the unnecessary labels. Maybe that's the Zen way of doing things, works for me.

Thank you for all of this!

[Beldame]

From a background of much less experience with Zen or Buddhism, I am currently making my way through the Buddhism basics talks too (thank you Jundo). I recently finished listening to the one about "Right Speech" -- which mentions that what this principle involves also sounds like "common sense" and things "your mother" might have told you. In another religious tradition I learned much of the same with special emphasis on not speaking ill of others, not gossiping etc. I think that one reason for me to join this site or, more exactly, to try to develop a sitting practice in the spirit of what I understand to be Zen is that...well, after all--to stay with the example of right speech--I may not necessarily need Buddhism or Zen or any other religious tradition to understand that some words are harmful and others are neutral and others do good and it's better to do good than harm. But to live that principle thinkingly/feelingly is something much harder--that would be, in my case, for one thing, to speak a little less carelessly and reactively. "Zen" or "just sitting" seems to open a door from the "basic" principle "Right speech" to something more...to getting a handle on living the path. Or that's my hope.

I do want to learn about the Eightfold path and plan to listen to all the "Buddhism Basics" talks. But I admit it's the hope for a practice that brought me here. Years ago I read books about Buddhism and didn't sit in any serious fashion. I'd like to get the balance better this time.

Gassho--
Deborah

SatToday

[Shugen]

I do want to learn about the Eightfold path and plan to listen to all the "Buddhism Basics" talks. But I admit it's the hope for a practice that brought me here. Years ago I read books about Buddhism and didn't sit in any serious fashion. I'd like to get the balance better this time.

Gassho--
Deborah

SatToday

Hi Deborah,

For many years I read a lot and sat very little. Over time, I read less and sat more. I can't say there was some big thing that started the sitting, it just "felt" like what I should do. Be patient with yourself and remember that it's better to sit for a short period of time almost every day than it is to sit for a long period of time very rarely.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

[Amelia]

Yes, slowly increasing the time builds the habit and causes an urge to sit more. Postponing that really ingraines it.

Gassho, sat today, lah

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Shinshi]

I do want to learn about the Eightfold path and plan to listen to all the "Buddhism Basics" talks. But I admit it's the hope for a practice that brought me here. Years ago I read books about Buddhism and didn't sit in any serious fashion. I'd like to get the balance better this time.

Gassho--
Deborah

SatToday

I was also one of those that approached Zen more as an intellectual exercise. For me it was doing Jukai and Ango that really opened my eyes to the fact that the sitting was way more important. I actually posted about it. About how I was slow to gain this insight. And so for me the transition from not sitting much, to sitting way more often was a pretty quick change.

I guess my point is that there are many different ways that people might come to their actual practice. Gradually increasing, or kind of diving right in. You will find what works for you. If you need help moving in that direction there are a ton of people here who can help point the way.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH