How does your vocation inform and integrate into life?

[Myo-jin]

Straightforward question I suppose, but it’s something I’ve often wondered, so apologies for running long.

To those who have received precepts, both as laypersons and monks/priests. How have these things fitted into your life, and what adjustments did you have to make?

For myself, receiving the precepts was a long time coming. I’d felt drawn to Zen Buddhism for long time, had sat with a few groups before coming to Treeleaf, and after receiving the precepts I found that there was a sort of internal ‘turning towards’ the Dharma, as well as some resistance to it. But overall as a layperson nobody is expecting much of me so what I do and when, in terms of practice, is entirely on me, so the precepts naturally find their place without much fuss.
Sometime I sit a lot, sometimes only for short periods. I read what I like, can explore the literature in a leisurely way, and the precepts are there as a sort of lodestone moderating how I relate to those around me. More importantly I think, to me at least, the Kasaya has had a deep impact on both how I view myself and how I see others, and my role in the fabric of life. That visible sign of taking refuge continues to teach me the more I wear it.

As for ordination, I’ve always felt it must be something that more or less takes over your life. As a resident in a temple is one thing, like permanent sesshin, where you follow the temple routine and learn priestcraft in a fairly intensive way with minimal distractions. However, if you have a day job, a family a the rest, then such a pace would be impossible I would think. So to those who are or have been in that situation, how do you find ways to sustain yourself long term, learning all that there is to learn, maintaining a Zazen practice, without burning out, over years and more, and integrate it into your secular life whilst still holding both with the respect they deserve?

On a more positive note, as Ordination implies service, in what ways do you serve, both in Sangha and in your daily life? And does your vocation help significantly or would you be doing these things anyway, with the vocation being a recognition of that fact rathernhan an extra obligation?

Gassho
Myojin

[Junsho]

Hi Myojin,

During a family vacation this December, I took some time to reflect on my experiences. Honestly, for someone who leads a very routine, diligent life, a vacation can feel awkward, as it is different from what we are used to. Such situations push us out of our comfort zones and encourage us to see our practice in various forms.

From my current understanding, using the Okesa is indeed a transformative experience. However, this transformation holds little meaning if we don’t apply the practice to every aspect of our lives. To me, Zen is more than a religion; it represents a way to live authentically. This means living without rigid goals and boundaries while maintaining a healthy, fulfilling life.

People often try too hard to integrate the practice into their daily routines. However, there’s no need for that. If you approach the path with diligence and practice, life will no longer be two separate sides of a coin; they will exist as the same. In other words, in unusual situations, take the time to sit when you need to, relax when it’s necessary, and enjoy the moment without extra obligations.

Gassho and deep bows.
SatLah

[DanielxSwish]

"To those who have received precepts, both as laypersons and monks/priests. How have these things fitted into your life, and what adjustments did you have to make?"

I have not actually made an effort to make any adjustments. The way I approach it is with mindfulness or 24/7 practice. So in all situations I try to maintain my curious awareness while keeping this question with me... "how can I be helpful right now? What is my job at this moment? Because the primary purpose for me is to wake up so that I can help others.

Gassho
satLAH

Daniel

[Shujin]

Hi Myo-jin, you ask some important questions for all of us. Although I didn't have a strong practice in college, I was sitting occasionally and reading Buddhist texts. I chose a career in public service as a police officer for 15 years. My second (and current) career is teaching math to students with disabilities/struggling learners at my local high school. Would I have chosen these careers if I didn't have an interest in Zen? I don't know. It's a bit like the chicken and the egg for me.

You wrote about secular vs religious. I think there's a distinction, but the longer I've practiced, the less clear it has become. What is sacred? What is mundane? Each person has their own challenges within the conditions of their life. For me, practicing within a marriage with two children looks quite different than a monk in a monastery. We can, and should, however, bring our sincere effort and attention to these things. They are no other than the forms and functions of Zen.

I think I understand what you mean when you write that ordination "takes over" one's life. I don't really see it this way. I usually offer incense when I sit. After wearing the rakusu for years, it now smells like incense smoke. Our vows permeate our life like this.

Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

[Hoseki]

Hi,

I don't think there are many big changes but that's because before I took the precepts I was committed to trying to help people flourish or at least not get in their way. I think the big differences are me holding my tongue more often, actively look for people who need help in my day to day (it's never world shattering more or a helping hand now and again) and trying to accept things as they are rather than resist and change them (sometimes that needed of course. I can't leave my hand on a hot stove ) It's been a lot of falling down and getting up again.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Myo-jin]

Hi all,

Thanks for your input so far, there are some nice insights into practice here. It's extremely useful to speak to others and understand what thoughts and feelings are generally applicable and what is the result of my own distortions.

Junsho I see what you mean about the transformation being meaningless if it applied in everyday life. That's very much been a 'result' of wearing the Okesa for me, knowing that the physical robe is only the visible sign, and actually, in a sense, we wear the Okesa every day of our lives. I suppose from that it follows that we can honour the Okesa that we are always wearing by living in accordance with it, not as a costume for zazen but as a living reality.

DanielxSwish Your words reflect very much my response to Junsho above, in a way that is the Okesa without even mentioning robes. I have to admit it's easier in theory than in practice. There are always times, if tired, stressed, or anxious, when selfishness takes the wheel, but it always comes back to this. Perhaps 'regular course adjustments' might describe it? I certinly am not at the point where the precepts automatically guide things, but they do provide a constant reference point.

Shujin thank you for your words. You are right of course that in any way that matters the distinction between secular and religious isn't really there. And yet, it is there in the sense of whether or not a person has formally 'left home' so to speak and become a priest. But perhaps one would have to cross that rubric to really see that from the inside it's just like the outside?
You write that you haven't felt that Ordination takes over your life. Perhaps I'm overthinking it but in my mind that path would involve more study and commitment both to your practice of zazen and whatever other aspect of practice (gathas, sutras, learning ritual and the rest), since my understanding is that you don't just recieve ordination and go on your merry way, but commit to a years long training process. Or were these things already in place and Ordination then meant you carried on as you were but with the addedd commitment? In short, did Ordination imply adding things or maintaining a level of practice that you otherwise hadn't?

Hoseki I can relate I think. I'd done some teaching and mentoring prior to the precepts, so had the beginings of wanting to see people flourish. Although I have to admit that it took until I was a bit older, before my self-interest started to erode enough to consider other peoples needs deeply. Having a young son has accelerated this more than I would have imagined, and there is a definite sense that life isn't lived for myself but for others, and for him in particular. But yes, theres a lot of falling down and getting back up again. I have a Daruma that regularly reminds me of this reality.

Thanks all thus far, the perspectives given are very much appreciated.

Gassho
Sattlah
Myojin

[Bion]

For me, home leaving was more of a continuation. I don't think anyone can go from 0 to 100 after a 1 hr long ceremony and chage everything about themselves once they take vows. Some things are either cultivated before or after, but it takes time and diligent practice.

Taking Jukai was a big thing for me. I had been a pretty serious practitioner before that, and had put in work to clean myself up years before that moment. Not based on some rules I had made up, but based on what I was realizing through practice. For example, I felt I couldn't genuinely call myself a buddhist and someone devoted to the Buddha's way while smoking. So I made efforts to quit. I committed to not using foul language at all, committed to daily sitting, to being kind and to learning. By the time Jukai happened for me, those things were an essential part of my life. Jukai brought me to my current home-sangha. It gave me a place to polish my understanding, to study under a teacher, gave me great examples of practitioners and allowed me to serve others. It also gave me a place to grow and figure out what direction I wanted to take.

Long before ordination, I had shaved my head and beard, sewed a few Okesa, made myself available to the sangha and followed a routine of practice. By the time I received ordination, my main activity was the practice with and for the sangha, with mostly all other aspects of personal life in the background, so in that sense, what came after was a continuation. My approach is much more traditional when it comes to ordination, but we all have different takes on what it means to be a priest or monk, and Jundo encourages and supports that. After ordination, of course, there is more responsibility, even more service to the sangha, a training program and schedule, there are duties and obligations. I don't think it's necessary to break down everything I do around the sangha, in order to answer your question, but I think everyone that's present and active around TL is familiar with most of it.

To answer your last question, when Jundo and I first spoke about ordination, he said I was a little green behind the ears, and a bit new to the sangha, but maybe in a year or two. My response was "oh, it's not a problem, I'll be here... I'm not going anywhere. Ordination or not, it won't change my practice". And so it was. I don't know if without the sangha my practice wouldve grown the same, but I practiced like a monk ( my interpretation of monk ) before there was even a thought of ordination, so the faith in the dharma was there.

I don't know if this answers your questions.
I sure ran very long. Apologies for the wall of text, everyone.

Gassho
sat lah

[Shujin]

Hi all,

Shujin thank you for your words. You are right of course that in any way that matters the distinction between secular and religious isn't really there. And yet, it is there in the sense of whether or not a person has formally 'left home' so to speak and become a priest. But perhaps one would have to cross that rubric to really see that from the inside it's just like the outside?
You write that you haven't felt that Ordination takes over your life. Perhaps I'm overthinking it but in my mind that path would involve more study and commitment both to your practice of zazen and whatever other aspect of practice (gathas, sutras, learning ritual and the rest), since my understanding is that you don't just recieve ordination and go on your merry way, but commit to a years long training process. Or were these things already in place and Ordination then meant you carried on as you were but with the addedd commitment? In short, did Ordination imply adding things or maintaining a level of practice that you otherwise hadn't?

You mention seeing the inside is just like the outside. This is similar to advice I was given by a couple of wonderful teachers some years ago. I didn't believe it at the time, but it turned out to be true.

You're correct that there is more to do, but I see it as the embodiment of my practice in this moment. We study texts, liturgy, and serve according to our abilities. I certainly give up some things in order to fulfill these obligations, but I also don't miss what I'm giving up. I hope that makes sense. Regardless, thank you for your practice.

Gassho,
Shujin

[Onkai]

I had wanted to take Jukai years before finding Treeleaf, so when I found I could do so, it made me enthusiastic about my practice. By the time I took the Precepts, I had a practice in place including weekly and monthly Zazenkai.

I was hesitant about ordination as it was more of a commitment, but finally decided serving the community was something I wanted to do. There are monthly ceremonial practice videos and weekly readings and reflections that take hours more than my regular practice, including Zazenkai, and I have been doing administrative and other things, especially since transmission. I am surprised at times at how much there is to do, but at other times I have the time to throw myself into outside projects. I'm always sure to attend to my home life as well. It's a balance to maintain.

Gassho Onkai

[Kotei]

Although I experienced Jukai and Ordination as very meaningful and wonderful events, they were in a way just an expression of what already happened.
I wouldn't have been able to impose something external, something "I need to be that" on me. It wouldn't have worked in the long run.
Of course things developed further from there and are still developing. There is some jumping in the deep end of the pool involved.
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Shinshi]

...
As for ordination, I’ve always felt it must be something that more or less takes over your life. As a resident in a temple is one thing, like permanent sesshin, where you follow the temple routine and learn priestcraft in a fairly intensive way with minimal distractions. However, if you have a day job, a family a the rest, then such a pace would be impossible I would think. So to those who are or have been in that situation, how do you find ways to sustain yourself long term, learning all that there is to learn, maintaining a Zazen practice, without burning out, over years and more, and integrate it into your secular life whilst still holding both with the respect they deserve?

On a more positive note, as Ordination implies service, in what ways do you serve, both in Sangha and in your daily life? And does your vocation help significantly or would you be doing these things anyway, with the vocation being a recognition of that fact rather than an extra obligation?

Gassho
Myojin

Like others have said. For me Ordination wasn't an adding on - Zen was an important part of my daily life. Ordination was more about emphasizing a commitment to others. Trying to find ways to help others learn the Dharma. I am not sure how successful I have been but that is/was my motivation. One of the things I try to focus on is to not create separation between aspects of my life. I don't think of my self as being in Zen mode sometimes, and "Real Life" mode at other times. All of my life is Zen - and all aspects of Zen inform my life and all of my life informs my Zen practice. I do my best not to get caught up in the idea that there is a "correct" way of being a priest. Sometimes my sitting is in unconventional spaces for example. That doesn't make it lesser.

The biggest change it has meant for me is more of a focus on service, always trying to be aware of opportunities, bit or small, to help other beings in the ways that I can.

You might be interested in Les Kaye's book: Zen at Work, a Zen Teacher's 30 year Journey in Corporate America. He was a student of Shunryu Suzuiki and worked at IBM at the same time. the book is out of print but you can find it used and it is also available at the Internet Archive.

https://archive.org/details/zenatwork00kaye

He is probably best known for putting together the Oryoki pamphlet that the vast majority of Zen temples in the US use.

Adding: Found review of the book at Tricycle

https://tricycle.org/magazine/zen-at-work-a-zen-teachers-30-year-journey-corporate-america/

Gassho, Shinshi

[Myo-jin]

Some great responses here for which I am grateful. It really helps put things in perspective.

Bion quitting smoking I can relate to. I last had a cigarette in 2007, and aside from health one of the reasons was the Yoga practice I was doing at the time, it just didn't make sense to be deliberately sabotaging myself by having a puff several times a day while trying to establish a meditative practice. I also tend to think that I'm pretty serious about practice, and there are lots of other adjustments I could make, the other three you mention are also things I notice in myself. But perhaps they will be worn away over time by the constant gentle pressure of the precepts.

Shujin The 'things to do' is what I expected, of course you have to learn priestcraft, and immerse in the tradition itself to the extent that at some point you can reliably teach it. That was one of the things that made me realise that ordination could end up being just a list of things to do, requiring space in ones life that at present I just don't have.

Hi Onkai, thanks for your insights, the commitment is definitely imposing, and a common theme it seems based on other responses. It seems that if the space in ones life is there, and the practice, including regular zazenkai etc, is in place, then it might be a natural step to ordain fully and commit to service. Quite honestly my home life is sufficiently erratic that regular attendance is next to impossible, the time zones don't help either. Although I've wanted to I've not been able to do more than sit zazen by myself and occasionally post on the forums, as well as my own study (currently going through some chapters of Shobogenzo again, and scratching my head over it).

I was considering making a habit of opening the free sitting room when I sit (usually about 25 minutes sometime between 0430 and 0530 every morning Japan time), on the offchance that somebody else might join.

Kotei that I can completely relate to. When I was considering ordination a while ago I realised that it could easily be a case of wanting to 'be' something other than I was, trying to force myself into a monk shaped mold in the hope that some of the dharma might rub off. But I realised that a vocation is exactly that, a calling, and unless I was called to it naturally as the next step then it would be to play a false note. Being where I actually am, fully present with it, seems to me much closer to the way than trying on the clothes and taking the vows when they are not appropriate to my calling in life.

Shinshi thank you for the book suggestion, I'll get a copy of that next time book buying comes around. I currently work for a government organisation and have to deal with Japanese corporate structures and the rest alongside scoentific research, so it might well offer some nice insights. You highlight a common thread that runs through the responses of others and something I sense too, that Zen is about daily life as a wholeness, not a seperating of secular vs monastic, or zen practice vs changing nappies and paying bills.

Thanks again for everyones contributions. Getting the perspectves of different practitioners in different walks of life is the change of perspective I needed. Sometimes I feel that something is lacking in my practice, that I can't engage with the dharma as fully as I might, and it's tempting the think that more robes and vows would fix it, but evidence suggests the contrary. On the other hand the awareness that things are actually fine as they are, all 'grist to the mill' as the saying goeas, and that this dissatisfaction is itself part of the path (it's the first noble truth after all).

Thanks again
Gassho
Sattlah

Myojin

[Seiko]

My paid employment is within the UK welfare system, providing money to people who are out of work and need this lifeline.

I first formally took Precepts in 1983, this is already more than two thirds of my life. Robes and ceremonies are important to us. But we can take precepts in our hearts without robes, without ceremonies. That is really important.

I was ordained not long after becoming a university chaplain. In my life, being an unsui and being a chaplain are intertwined, complimentary and part of the same practice and identity.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

[Myo-jin]

My paid employment is within the UK welfare system, providing money to people who are out of work and need this lifeline.

I first formally took Precepts in 1983, this is already more than two thirds of my life. Robes and ceremonies are important to us. But we can take precepts in our hearts without robes, without ceremonies. That is really important.

I was ordained not long after becoming a university chaplain. In my life, being an unsui and being a chaplain are intertwined, complimentary and part of the same practice and identity.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

Seiko Thanks for your background, it strikes me that ministry of one sort or another is 'in your blood' so to speak. I can see how being unsui and being a Chaplain are two sides of one coin, which is no coin. And as someone who owes a large part of their upbringing to the UK welfare system, while it's often a thankless job, I can appreciate what such an institution means, and what is means to serve in it, so I thank you for that service.

Speaking to all of you, and reflecting on the interaction, it came to me why I was interested initially in ordination, and possibly why I haven't after all sought to make that commitment.

We all seek something while paradoxically knowing in our bones that there is nothing to seek. If it were not so we wouldn't go to these efforts, to study, embody, and teach the Buddha way. So I ask myself, what is it you are seeking?

Service to others and upholding the precepts is a given, but they do not require home leaving, so that's not a reason. And I certainly don't seek a formal role in any community, although it has occurred to me that someday I might like to invite people to sit zazen with me, but as a fellow human, not as a teacher.

My answer is (while admitting the inadaquacy of language to express it fully), 'to understand zen'. Not just to grasp in an intellectual sense, but to really 'grok' it, so that it isn't just a mental game to play when things get tough, or a pose to strike for myself in the mirror of the ego, but as a lived reality that comes from the reorganising of the whole being around that which I cannot grasp intellectually, but only by intuition, as an affirmation beyond yes and no. Like a bird in the hand that can be held gently, but not grasped without killing it.

That is the only reason I would ordain, for me it's the only thing that rings true. But it strikes me that priesthood is about much more than that, but about a definite service to others anf the tramsmission not just of zen, but of the whole Soto Buddhist tradition, and I don't think I'm up to carrying that extra load, at least not at this point in my life.

But I appreciate those who can and do more than I can express.

Gassho

Sattlah

Myojin

[Bion]

That is the only reason I would ordain, for me it's the only thing that rings true. But it strikes me that priesthood is about much more than that, but about a definite service to others anf the tramsmission not just of zen, but of the whole Soto Buddhist tradition, and I don't think I'm up to carrying that extra load, at least not at this point in my life.

But I appreciate those who can and do more than I can express.

I would confidently say that there are all kinds of monks and priests. Some are teachers with words, some just with their own lives, some wear robes, some don't, some use Japanese names, some don't, some receive dharma transmission, some don't, some stay ordained, some disrobe, some ordain and train others, some don't. I do think, as you also seem to hint there, that one's motivation for ordination is something to deeply work with, and in my view, a deep sincerity regarding where one's devotion lies is essential.

It is always useful and grounding for me to remember that the original followers of the Buddha were renunciants, mendicants, not monks as we understand it. With going forth, one renounces the pursuit of the self and all its fabrications, to hand themselves over to the Buddha's Way... what that devotion looks like in practice, is a different matter.. Even in the early sangha, some were Vinaya masters, others were called Yogacara bhiksus (not the same as the Yogachara school), and they were devoting themselves to meditation, some were forest dwellers, some devoted themselves to the duthangas (asscetic practices), some were teachers of the dharma, some scholars, some pursued arhatship, while others pursued buddhahood etc Monks, priests and whatever combination of the two, come in many shades and shapes.

Gassho
sat lah