No returning, no samadhi, only sit

[Simon]

Hello,

I’ve been registered on this forum for a while but had completely forgotten about it. Recently, I posted something on Reddit and received some thoughtful replies from Jundo Cohen, which reminded me of this space so here I am.

I wanted to expand a bit on what I shared, especially in light of some of the responses I received. I’ll repost my original message here for reference:

Fujita Isho, in his book Polishing a Tile, describes zazen as fundamentally different from shuzen. Shuzen refers to seated meditation in which a specific mental technique is applied. Zazen, however, shouldn't rely on any mental technique, because it isn’t directed toward achieving any particular goal or altered state, it's not a means to an end.

Fujita writes, "we should avoid bringing the “side job” of various meditation techniques like the four foundations of mindfulness, Sun 18 meditation, Ajikan meditation and so on, into zazen". Therefore, all the classic meditation instructions such as following or counting the breath, being aware of the body, or trying to "be present" are seen as obstructions, rather than aids.

He continues suggesting that giving zazen instructions can itself be problematic. Zazen, he says, "should be what is naturally and freely generated from inside as a result of non-fabrication". Then, how do you do zazen? But even this question comes from the "framework based on “means and end” which is always behind the shuzen approach".

Therefore, Fujita, like many others Soto Zen teachers, emphasizes the importance of leaving zazen to zazen. To paraphrase Gudo Nishijima Roshi, it’s simple: just aim at sitting and "as soon as we find that we are thinking or imagining, we should just try to stop doing so". There’s no need to be present, or aware of anything in particular, or focus on the breath to develop samadhi. Just sit.

I received many insightful replies. Some tried to connect this approach to neuroscience, which I found interesting. However, I also felt that the point of Shikantanza was being missed.

One of the responses argued that it was essential to cultivate samadhi and train attention so that it becomes natural to remain focused at all times. The idea was that such stable focus would lead, as a side effect, to not being entangled in thoughts. But in my understanding, that approach aligns more closely with concentration practices or shuzen as Fujita Isho points out. Shikantaza, as Dogen taught it, seems fundamentally different. It is not a concentration practice.

Often, zazen instructions include following the breath and returning to it when lost in thought. While I see the value in this I feel that's not the point of Shikantaza (if there's a point).

Personally, I don’t believe there’s a need to “return to the breath”, or return to anything. When we disentangle ourselves from thoughts, what remains is a natural awareness of what is. This may include the breath, posture, sounds, or simply open space. It’s an effortless, open presence, not something directed or held.

That said, returning to or following the breath can still be a helpful support when the mind is particularly restless. But I see that more as a practical aid rather than an essential part of Shikantaza itself, an aid that eventually needs to be let go of.

Gasho

Sat today

[Kokuu]

Hi Simon

I think that your approach is exactly right and Fujita Isho is a reliable person to learn from. 'Leave zazen to zazen' is a good instruction.

A restless mind does not have to be a problem if we can just let it be as it is but we can clearly become caught up in thoughts. At some point we notice that is happening and then I tend to suggest coming back to the posture or the intention just to let sitting happen. There is nothing wrong with returning to the breath but I tend to think that is too closely associated with shamatha practice.

One thing I might say about your penultimate sentence is that sometimes zazen is an effortless, open presence, but sometimes it can feel hard or constricted and I have been known to curse Dogen for his entreaty that Zazen is just "the dharma gate of ease and joy"! Zazen is not any particular state but just what is right here, right now.

Dogen calls practice jijiyu-samadhi - which has been translated as 'the samadhi of receiving and using the self'. Essentially, we are established dependent on all things, and through that the whole universe acts through us. Zazen is just letting this process happen naturally without anything extra needing to be added.

This is not in any way to diminism breath awareness practice, vipassana, or any one of a number of other Buddhist practices. They all have their place and approach in their own tradition. However, as far as Soto Zen goes, Shikantaza Zazen is the centre around which our life and practice pivots.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[FNJ]

Hi Simon

I think that your approach is exactly right and Fujita Isho is a reliable person to learn from. 'Leave zazen to zazen' is a good instruction.

A restless mind does not have to be a problem if we can just let it be as it is but we can clearly become caught up in thoughts. At some point we notice that is happening and then I tend to suggest coming back to the posture or the intention just to let sitting happen. There is nothing wrong with returning to the breath but I tend to think that is too closely associated with shamatha practice.

One thing I might say about your penultimate sentence is that sometimes zazen is an effortless, open presence, but sometimes it can feel hard or constricted and I have been known to curse Dogen for his entreaty that Zazen is just "the dharma gate of ease and joy"! Zazen is not any particular state but just what is right here, right now.

Dogen calls practice jijiyu-samadhi - which has been translated as 'the samadhi of receiving and using the self'. Essentially, we are established dependent on all things, and through that the whole universe acts through us. Zazen is just letting this process happen naturally without anything extra needing to be added.

This is not in any way to diminism breath awareness practice, vipassana, or any one of a number of other Buddhist practices. They all have their place and approach in their own tradition. However, as far as Soto Zen goes, Shikantaza Zazen is the centre around which our life and practice pivots.

So to some extent I feel this is actually a continuation of the "superpowers" question. From my view any deliberate cultivation using the power of concentration is headed in the same direction. It is NOT shikantaza, but as Kokuu said that does NOT mean concentration practices have NO value. And some people with specific issues may actually benefit.

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Jundo]

By the way, this is what I wrote to Simon when he asked that in a Reddit group ...


~~~

The radical goallessness of Shikantaza can be so easily misunderstood that people think it something they must seek to do, rather than simply resting from our usual running, chasing, planning, measuring, trying, seeking, pondering. Shikantaza might be compared to a racer (ordinary goal oriented person in life) swimming hard to cross a pool with the goal of getting to the other side or winning some prize who, instead, letting the arms and legs rest, just breathing naturally, simply floats with the flowing, letting the waters of the universe carry one where they will. Soon, the hard borders of swimmer, swimming and liquid soften, even fully drop away, and there is left only the flowing flowing flowing on.

The difference from ordinary just giving up, or just resting, is that one does this with sincerity and equanimity, with a deep trust in the bones that there is truly no where in need of going, no "this shore" of the pool apart from "that shore," no other place or time to be in the world. Then, every single drop of liquid holds the whole pool and the whole ocean.

We believe that the Buddha, after years of searching, sat under the Bodhi Tree and, seeing the Morning Star shining just to shine, put down all need and effort, thus was illuminated.

Even some Shikantaza sitters who try to turn this into some state to attain of "Just Sitting" may miss the subtle point. This is mysticism, and SHIKANTAZA ZAZEN IS A SACRED ACT OF THE UNIVERSE! :-)


Gassho, J
stlah

PS - Simon, when you get a chance, would you kindly add a human face photo to your posts? It helps keep things warmer and more human around here. Thank you.

[Shui_Di]

He wrote:
Fujita writes, "we should avoid bringing the “side job” of various meditation techniques like the four foundations of mindfulness, Sun 18 meditation, Ajikan meditation and so on, into zazen". Therefore, all the classic meditation instructions such as following or counting the breath, being aware of the body, or trying to "be present" are seen as obstructions, rather than aids.


My comment:
I should disagree with him that any other technique is obstruction to Zazen. But I agree that the techniques like counting the breath is NOT Shikantaza. It is very clear that Keizan Zenji wrote about in some condition we can put our mind in certain point like in Tanden or point between eye brows and so on.
Any other technique, for example stretching our muscle, physical exercise, taking medicine if you sick, sleeping, hearing music, or counting the breath, having a cup of tea, or breathing through Tanden, all of these are not Zazen, but sometimes they can help to create a condition for someone before practicing Shikantaza-Zazen. What works is worked.


He wrote:
He continues suggesting that giving zazen instructions can itself be problematic. Zazen, he says, "should be what is naturally and freely generated from inside as a result of non-fabrication". Then, how do you do zazen? But even this question comes from the "framework based on “means and end” which is always behind the shuzen approach".


My comment:
I want to give my opinion in the term Shuzen.

In the perspective of Buddhism as general, The practice of meditation concentration like Jhanas, was practiced by the Hindus too in Buddha time. But it only lead someone to the "Brahma realm" only. The tranquility of Jhana is not permanent too. Clinging to the joy of Jhana can be a trap too. So what is the different between Buddhist meditation and Bharmic meditation is the "Right Understanding" / the first path of the 8 fold path. What makes it different is in the Buddhist meditation, we use the power of "calming mind" of Jhana (Samadhi), to see through the phenomena of reality. Understanding the rise and set of everything, the non-self of everything, then detachment from the 5 aggregates naturally appear. This is the wisdom part (Prajna) of Buddhism which is not found in the Brahmic meditation.
The Buddhist meditation approach I wrote above, is the gradual path, and maybe it is what is meant by Fujita sensei as Shuzen.

In Zen as general, the Samadhi and the Prajna were practiced simultaneously. Especially in Soto Tradition (IN MY OPINION), Dogen Zenji gave more direct approach in Shikantaza Zazen. In Shikantaza, we are not using concentrated mind to calm the mind. We just let everything be as they are. We just sit, and we realize that the mind is ALREADY "Calm" (with the big C) from the first time. And this is the wisdom and Samadhi practiced simultaneously. The "calm" and "not calm" is just the wave of the ocean. But both are part of Ocean. By realizing this, we Just Sit. Not to be a Buddha, but as a Buddha. If we sit in order to be a Buddha, then it is Shuzen (Cultivating Zen) We practice to attain something.

In Zazen (Sitting Zen), we just sit with what it is. But it doesn't mean, Zazen is just sit in sitting posture. Because someone can sleep in sitting posture too, and sleeping that way IS NOT Zazen. In Zazen, we sit with our NATURAL awareness. We just see how things come and go between our ears, without giving any judgement. We see without trying to see. We hear without trying to hear, we aware without trying to aware. We just be with it. Dogen Zenji clearly stated in Fukanzazengi. "Think of not thinking." Dogen Zenji didn't say "Don't think". If Dogen Zenji said "don't think", then people in coma must be a great Zen Master. Dogen Zenji said "Think". Means at least we are not sleeping. Or at least we are not playing gadget or game while sitting in meditation posture and regard it as Zazen. So Zazen has something to do not only with physical sitting, but also with mind. The word "Think" has something to do with mind. Next, Dogen Zenji wrote, " What is thinking of not-thinking? It is non-thinking / beyond thinking." Means we just sit, and let the thought as it is. Wave come and go, but We become "beyond" the thoughts, be the ocean, realizing that wave is Ocean too. Here We sit as a Buddha. This is the difference between Shuzen and Zazen.

So in Zazen too, we must have correct understanding. That's why when Fujita sensei said, "Giving zazen instructions can itself be problematic." I have to disagree with him. Maybe in some cases, giving instruction can be obstruction for Zazen, but most people need explanation. That's why Dogen Zenji wrote Fukanzazengi and Shobogenzo. All of them are instructions.

Some people needs more detailed explanation, some may not. Even in some condition, like Keizan wrote in Yojinki, needs some techniques before doing Shikantaza. (For example if you are sleepy. But for me, I just drink my coffee ). So we can't be too idealist or too be fundamentalist about Zazen, because as a Bodhisattva we use ANYTHING / ANY MEANS to help sentient beings. If I can bring my daughter to sit in a Zendo by offering a candy, then Candy is a "good technique" for my daughter, but not for everyone. We should not see things from the "absolute" point of view only, because we are still living in the "relative" world too.


He wrote:
Therefore, Fujita, like many others Soto Zen teachers, emphasizes the importance of leaving zazen to zazen. To paraphrase Gudo Nishijima Roshi, it’s simple: just aim at sitting and "as soon as we find that we are thinking or imagining, we should just try to stop doing so". There’s no need to be present, or aware of anything in particular, or focus on the breath to develop samadhi. Just sit.


My comment:
At this point I agree with "Leaving Zazen to Zazen".
Words is like a raft to help people to go to the other shore. But it is also something that we should leave after we use it.
So at the end, we let Zazen as Zazen. We just Sit.
And then we realize that the raft is already the other shore. Or maybe there is no shore at all.

My conclusion:
Fujita Sensei has a very deep wisdom. Some of my disagreement doesn't mean I see my self better from him. I just offer another perspective. Fujita Sensei may explain Zazen from the absolute point of view, and my comment here is just to remind us that we shouldn't neglect the relative point of view too. But overall, this is just my opinion only. And I welcome any comments too.

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

[Jundo]

Lovely, lovely wise comments, Shui Di. Yes, you have a beautiful way to express our Practice.

I should disagree with him that any other technique is obstruction to Zazen. But I agree that the techniques like counting the breath is NOT Shikantaza. It is very clear that Keizan Zenji wrote about in some condition we can put our mind in certain point like in Tanden or point between eye brows and so on.
Any other technique, for example stretching our muscle, physical exercise, taking medicine if you sick, sleeping, hearing music, or counting the breath, having a cup of tea, or breathing through Tanden, all of these are not Zazen, but sometimes they can help to create a condition for someone before practicing Shikantaza-Zazen. What works is worked.

Yes. Keizan did recommend some added things, but for times when the mind is particularly storming and confused, we are particularly tired and such. So, we "let thoughts be," but we also don't want to be caught in hurricanes of thought. So, at those times, he recommended such practices as placing focus between the eye brows or below the navel, chewing on a Koan phrase or mantra and such. On ordinary days, we need no special technique.

One can also mix Shikantaza with other practices --if-- chosen carefully (e.g., we also practice Metta recitals, and some folks might chant to Amida or do Tai Chi, or play tennis or cooking, etc. etc.), but not DURING Shikantaza, when Sitting is the only act to do in the universe! Also, maybe some actions are bad always, e.g., one should not mix Zazen with robbing banks or overly drinking alcohol!

To paraphrase Gudo Nishijima Roshi, it’s simple: just aim at sitting and "as soon as we find that we are thinking or imagining, we should just try to stop doing so".

I recently had a discussion with someone about this advice from Nishijima Roshi. I think that some of it was just his difficulty with English. In my impression from knowing him, his "try to stop [thinking]" did not mean a "total stop" or to make effort to "try hard to stop all thinking," but was more like "just stop being caught in thought, and untangle."

Gassho, J
stlah

[Simon]

Thank you everyone for your replies!

Some people needs more detailed explanation, some may not. Even in some condition, like Keizan wrote in Yojinki, needs some techniques before doing Shikantaza. (For example if you are sleepy. But for me, I just drink my coffee ). So we can't be too idealist or too be fundamentalist about Zazen, because as a Bodhisattva we use ANYTHING / ANY MEANS to help sentient beings. If I can bring my daughter to sit in a Zendo by offering a candy, then Candy is a "good technique" for my daughter, but not for everyone. We should not see things from the "absolute" point of view only, because we are still living in the "relative" world too.

I totally agree. I personally don't like detailed explanation, but that's just my preference.

I recently had a discussion with someone about this advice from Nishijima Roshi. I think that some of it was just his difficulty with English. In my impression from knowing him, his "try to stop [thinking]" did not mean a "total stop" or to make effort to "try hard to stop all thinking," but was more like "just stop being caught in thought, and untangle."

I think the problem is that people interpret this as an attempt to repress thoughts, but that’s clearly not what Nishijima Roshi meant. The way I like to explain it is this: when you're reading something and decide you don’t want to continue, you simply stop reading. You’re not repressing reading, you just stop doing it. I feel it’s the same with thoughts. When we realise we’ve been thinking, we just stop. Sometimes the thoughts drop away on their own, other times they’re a bit stickier and linger. But in either case, there’s nothing to do except not participate or interact with them.

Gassho
stlah