Hey dude! Where's my superpowers?

[FNJ]

Lingering questions:

1. If one did want to learn (just to test out) cultivation of siddhis where should one start.
2. Why warn against them if they don't exist.
3. Without siddhis it would seem Buddhism is basically secular mindfulness.

Supernormal powers seem to me to conversely stem from a desire to control our experience rather than respond to life just as it is, and keep us trapped in the same patterns of attachment and aversion that lead to suffering.
Everyone is of course free to pursue the path they wish but as Zen teachers our aim is to point people to what will free them from suffering.

Yes but a lack of control over a person life may in fact be the source of their particular suffering. Also to what extent are we misleading people and pedalling false promises around the particular magic of ending suffering. Some author have recently pointed to the "end of reactivity" as the best case scenario for Buddhism from a secular and scientific perspective (which is NOT what the heart sutra says)

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Kokuu]

1. If one did want to learn (just to test out) cultivation of siddhis where should one start.
2. Why warn against them if they don't exist.
3. Without siddhis it would seem Buddhism is basically secular mindfulness.

1. No idea
2. Perhaps because people thought they exist. People warned against demonic possession too, not walking around a church anticlockwise and, farther back, elfshot. Are those things real dangers? We can also waste time on things that don't work and it would seem wise to warn against that. Do these things exist? I don't know.
3. Secular mindfulness lacks several components of Buddhism and seems to me to be used for distinct (and worthwhile) purposes other than total freedom from suffering. It goes some of the way but stops short.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Noel]

I know where we come from and to where we go, sitting right here ... and I can read your thoughts and your heart in my heart and all our hearts. You Karmic destiny and mine is to seek to live a good and gentle life, and to make a better world.

So, do not cloud the real miracle with side-show distractions and silliness, quackery and quaint old myths.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Master Jundo,

This is what confuses me. When you say that you have these abilities, are you speaking metaphorically, or do you mean it literally? Do you truly know other people's thoughts, or is this meant as some kind of metaphor?

If it is true, there is no reliable source to prove it. But if you mean that, according to science, there is proof that we are connected (sorry, I don't know much about science), then it would be considered a fact. However, we cannot demand reliability for some things while ignoring it for others.

Aren’t there many aspects of Buddhism that rely on faith—things we simply believe? Or is it not like that? I don't know much about it, which is why I'm asking.

Thank you.

Gassho,

Noel

Sat-lah

[Jundo]

Lingering questions:

1. If one did want to learn (just to test out) cultivation of siddhis where should one start.

Not here, not in this Sangha. Best look elsewhere.

2. Why warn against them if they don't exist.

The same reason we warn against any delusion and distraction.

3. Without siddhis it would seem Buddhism is basically secular mindfulness.

No. We have plenty of other wonderful and powerful teachings, many most powerful and freeing, without believing in superstitions.

This is what confuses me. When you say that you have these abilities, are you speaking metaphorically, or do you mean it literally?

Hi Noel,

I mean it literally, but it may not be what you assume it is. As I wrote ...

To know that we are this reality, that we are all of it, thus every tree and star, worm and atom as us and we just them ... all is realized in a moment of Zazen.
We are here, yet not, for we are all of it, and our little selves, yet not.
When the hard borders of self and other soften, or fully drop away, what barriers can hold one, and were is one not?
Truly, through this practice, one realizes that we are boundless, and there is no place we cannot go, or where we are not.

When the hard borders of self/other soften, or fully drop away, through this practice, one can feel that one is all things and everything, that one is everywhere, inside everything from small grains of sand to great oceans and the stars in the sky, and one is also all time ... which is also somehow timeless. In fact, the Dharma Talk Friday for Master Dogen's Ocean Mudra Samadhi was precisely about that (thank you for being there, by the way. ) It is truly freeing, beyond and right through even birth and death. We also realize that the "little separate self" is (provisionally) yet is not.

I do not consider it a particular magic experience, because what is actually happening (I believe) is that the modeling and drawing of internal mental borders in the brain centers that define "me" are replaced with an alternative model via Zazen practice. Suddenly, it is not a matter that one feels that one ends at the skin, but rather that "me" is everything, everything is "me" in other guise (but, it is not solipsism, the belief that "only I am the universe," because it is the experience that we and all things TOGETHOR are so, and each other.)

One can also know other people's minds in the sense of knowing the root of suffering in the human heart, Dukkha, like "a doctor knows the patient's disease."

But, no, I cannot literally walk through a wall without a door!

The part about Delta Airlines Frequent Flier miles is true.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Noel]

Hi Noel,

I mean it literally, but it may not be what you assume it is. As I wrote ...

To know that we are this reality, that we are all of it, thus every tree and star, worm and atom as us and we just them ... all is realized in a moment of Zazen.
We are here, yet not, for we are all of it, and our little selves, yet not.
When the hard borders of self and other soften, or fully drop away, what barriers can hold one, and were is one not?
Truly, through this practice, one realizes that we are boundless, and there is no place we cannot go, or where we are not.

When the hard borders of self/other soften, or fully drop away, through this practice, one can feel that one is all things and everything, that one is everywhere, inside everything from small grains of sand to great oceans and the stars in the sky, and one is also all time ... which is also somehow timeless. In fact, the Dharma Talk Friday for Master Dogen's Ocean Mudra Samadhi was precisely about that (thank you for being there, by the way. ) It is truly freeing, beyond and right through even birth and death. We also realize that the "little separate self" is (provisionally) yet is not.

I do not consider it a particular magic experience, because what is actually happening (I believe) is that the modeling and draw of borders in the brain centers that define "me" are replaced with an alternative model via Zazen practice. Suddenly, it is not a matter that one feels that one end at the skin, but rather that "me" is everything, everything is "me" in other guise (but, it is not solipsism, the belief that "only I am the universe," because it is the experience that we and all things TOGETHOR are so, and each other.)

One can also know other people's minds in the sense of knowing the root of suffering in the human heart, Dukkha, like "a doctor knows the patient's disease."

But, no, I cannot literally walk through a wall without a door!

The part about Delta Airlines Frequent Flier miles is true.

Gassho, J

stlah

Thank you very much, Master Jundo.

Gassho,

Noel

Sat-lah

[Chikyou]

Reading this thread I am reminded of “makyo” experiences - things that we experience within our mind during zazen which are real to us in that moment but are largely regarded as distractions, something to accept and observe, but not to chase after or run away from. I wonder if these “mystical powers” are very much the same - if a practitioner is meditating, and they feel that they are flying, are they indeed flying? Or are they firmly anchored to their cushion, and only their mind is in flight.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Jundo]

Sorry, I missed your other question, Noel.

Aren’t there many aspects of Buddhism that rely on faith—things we simply believe? Or is it not like that? I don't know much about it, which is why I'm asking.

I find it hard to believe in religious teachings that are just wild, mythical, with no evidence and little logic to support it. However, I always stay "agnostic" because we cannot be sure. So, for example, I like to say, "I do not believe that there is a Loch Ness Monster, or the UFOs come from other planets, but I am open to being wrong."

When it comes to some Buddhist topics, such as literal rebirth in a next life after death in this life, I say that "I am skeptical of overly detailed descriptions of that, but I am open to being wrong." I think that we are reborn in some ways (e.g., because we are all things and everyone, we are "reborn" with EVERY baby and blade of grass.)

I doubt that, literally, Kannon and Amida exist as beings in some hidden world (although I am open to being wrong.) However, I believe that Kannon and Amida are real whenever any human being does a real act of kindness, wisdom and compassion in this world.

I have a kind of faith in Zazen, in the sense that ... if one sits with trust that Zazen is complete, lacking nothing then it becomes true because of one's belief.

Those are my kinds of "faith."

I am an avowed (that means I am proud to be a) Buddhist modernist, someone who wishes to bring our teachings into modern times. We do not need silliness and superstition in Buddhism.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[FNJ]

Well it seems right to point out that doing Metta is not that much different from what I'm talking about here. And this is something that I have seen and read about Treeleafers practicing.

So while the following doesn't talk about some of the more far out claims of siddhis, this is all I could find in the absence of any other suggestions.

1. Pīti — https://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas


2. Mettā Bhāvanā — https://www.lionsroar.com/metta-meditation-guide


3. Anapanasati — https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...mma/bl115.html


4. Vipassanā — https://www.dhamma.org/en/about/vipassana


5. Chakra Dhyāna — https://www.yogajournal.com/meditati...kra-meditation


6. Yoga Nidra — https://www.yogajournal.com/meditati...ed-meditation/


7. Tummo — https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-tummo-meditation/

So are these magic? Probably not the way I meant them originally. And most of these are just considered different meditation traditions. But some of them are kind of far out like Tummo.

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Shujin]

Well it seems right to point out that doing Metta is not that much different from what I'm talking about here. And this is something that I have seen and read about Treeleafers practicing.

So while the following doesn't talk about some of the more far out claims of siddhis, this is all I could find in the absence of any other suggestions.

1. Pīti — https://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas


2. Mettā Bhāvanā — https://www.lionsroar.com/metta-meditation-guide


3. Anapanasati — https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...mma/bl115.html


4. Vipassanā — https://www.dhamma.org/en/about/vipassana


5. Chakra Dhyāna — https://www.yogajournal.com/meditati...kra-meditation


6. Yoga Nidra — https://www.yogajournal.com/meditati...ed-meditation/


7. Tummo — https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-tummo-meditation/

So are these magic? Probably not the way I meant them originally. And most of these are just considered different meditation traditions. But some of them are kind of far out like Tummo.

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

What is the relationship of any of these seven practices to shikantaza?

Gassho,
Shujin

[FNJ]

Hi Niall,
You have a way of framing your questions - like it's some kind of test. Whilst that isn't good or bad, it's unusual. I wonder if there is a reason for this?

It's more like I honestly don't know how I feel about it so I'm trying to see what others think. I, like you have spent time in different traditions and it's not like I suddenly said I don't believe one thing now that I'm trying a new thing. Honestly, I'm not sure if I ever stopped being Unitarian!

I have been very interested in going back to the beginning of Buddhism and reading the sutras and low and behold there is a lot of talk about siddhis. I have also experience quite a few things I can't explain very well but that there is a framework for it in some of the other Buddhist traditions.

But as far as I can tell Zen just says hard NO to everything. I am a curious person and so when somebody shows me a big red button and says don't push it, I feel like investigating it (don't worry I won't push it but I will investigate it)

I'd like to ask you a question, if you don't mind? Perhaps more than one?

I see so much beauty and wonder and kindness in the world - as it is now - that I don't wish for supernatural powers. In fact I don't wish for any power at all - supernatural or otherwise. Do you not feel like that?

Sure, at least provisionally. But for me, if there is something good (for myself or others) that can be accomplished by meditative concentration that may or may not be magic by our current definitions, and if we have been told repeatedly in the sutras to not get totally sidetracked by it, then that must mean it exists at least provisionally. So I'm just curious, does one cultivate these things or did they just happen or do they not exist and what better place to ask a message board with other Buddhists.

You mention telepathy, levitation, and past-life recall. I guess someone would have to believe those things exist, or are even possible, before they could acquire those skills. But even then, it's just more acquisition.

Well I had this faith that Buddhism might relieve suffering but I didn't know for sure so I had to practice to find out. I approached the question of super normal powers from the same perspective.

Part of me thinks that if you believe something hard enough (and are able to bring your powers of concentration together on something), you give it some sort of reality, even if it's just between your own two ears. I guess the big question is what is a power worth developing? Seeing and reading other people's thoughts might be a big place to start if it would help them.

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Seiko]

It's more like I honestly don't know how I feel about it so I'm trying to see what others think. I, like you have spent time in different traditions and it's not like I suddenly said I don't believe one thing now that I'm trying a new thing. Honestly, I'm not sure if I ever stopped being Unitarian!

I have been very interested in going back to the beginning of Buddhism and reading the sutras and low and behold there is a lot of talk about siddhis. I have also experience quite a few things I can't explain very well but that there is a framework for it in some of the other Buddhist traditions.

But as far as I can tell Zen just says hard NO to everything. I am a curious person and so when somebody shows me a big red button and says don't push it, I feel like investigating it (don't worry I won't push it but I will investigate it)



Sure, at least provisionally. But for me, if there is something good (for myself or others) that can be accomplished by meditative concentration that may or may not be magic by our current definitions, and if we have been told repeatedly in the sutras to not get totally sidetracked by it, then that must mean it exists at least provisionally. So I'm just curious, does one cultivate these things or did they just happen or do they not exist and what better place to ask a message board with other Buddhists.



Well I had this faith that Buddhism might relieve suffering but I didn't know for sure so I had to practice to find out. I approached the question of super normal powers from the same perspective.

Part of me thinks that if you believe something hard enough (and are able to bring your powers of concentration together on something), you give it some sort of reality, even if it's just between your own two ears. I guess the big question is what is a power worth developing? Seeing and reading other people's thoughts might be a big place to start if it would help them.

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

Hi Niall,

Thank you for answering my questions. It's useful to find out why someone asks certain things, in a certain way.

Yes I've practiced elsewhere, but I'm here now. I choose to be here.

The thing is, this is not a message board like other message boards, it's a practice place, and our practice is Shikantaza. The reason people are generally respectful of Jundo and Senior priests is exactly that - we are practicing together and we are grateful for their guidance.

If you want to ask about stuff that we don't do, perhaps it's best to ask people that do do it. I am not going to criticise some other type of Buddhism or some other type of sitting. We do shikantaza, others do something else.

I guess it comes down to this, it's fine to do spiritual window-shopping, *IF* it helps you decide where you want to practice, but window-shopping for too long is just a waste of time.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

[FNJ]

Hi Niall,

Thank you for answering my questions. It's useful to find out why someone asks certain things, in a certain way.

Yes I've practiced elsewhere, but I'm here now. I choose to be here.

The thing is, this is not a message board like other message boards, it's a practice place, and our practice is Shikantaza. The reason people are generally respectful of Jundo and Senior priests is exactly that - we are practicing together and we are grateful for their guidance.

If you want to ask about stuff that we don't do, perhaps it's best to ask people that do do it. I am not going to criticise some other type of Buddhism or some other type of sitting. We do shikantaza, others do something else.

I guess it comes down to this, it's fine to do spiritual window-shopping, *IF* it helps you decide where you want to practice, but window-shopping for too long is just a waste of time.

Hmmm, it sounds like you want me to accept what you're laying down, uncritically and as fast as possible. I got the impression from having watched the forum for a while before I registered that I was asking exactly the kind of questions that everybody else was asking. It seems that you're saying I have misread the situation?

There's all sorts of topics, some of which aren't even on Buddhism like all the tech and science stuff.

I think I have been nothing but respectful of Jundo. What have I said to make you think that I am not being respectful? Is asking follow-up questions considered rude in this Sangha? I thought I was imagining it, but now I'm definitely feeling a little bit of a sensitivity there.

No problem I'll shut up for a while and listen to what others have to say. Hopefully that will put your mind at ease, but I will leave you with this.

Kalama Sutta:

Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon what is in a scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon an axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over, nor upon another’s seeming ability, nor upon the consideration, ‘The monk is our teacher.’ When you yourselves know: ‘These things are wholesome, these things are blameless; these things are praised by the wise; these things, if undertaken and practiced, lead to welfare and happiness,’ then you should enter and abide in them.”

— Aṅguttara Nikāya 3.65, Kālāma Sutta

It doesn't matter what Buddhist tradition you're in. This is an empirical and possibly scientific investigation and questioning should not be discouraged.

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Jundo]

Well it seems right to point out that doing Metta is not that much different from what I'm talking about here. And this is something that I have seen and read about Treeleafers practicing.

So while the following doesn't talk about some of the more far out claims of siddhis, this is all I could find in the absence of any other suggestions.

Hi Niall,

As others have said, it is not that there is anything wrong at all with other practices. Different medicines for different patients. It is just that this is a practice place for Shikantaza and the Soto Zen teachings based upon Master Dogen. So, if you come to a Karate Dojo, don't be surprised if people don't focus on tennis there, or insist to talk much about tennis. If going to a Japanese sushi restaurant, don't order spaghetti, even if both are delicious!

I explain our Metta practice this way: If I say harsh words, and even often if I silently have an anger or jealousy inside, it can effect the people around me and even (in this day of mass communication) people on the other side of the world. It can just bring a little more ugliness into the world (e.g., think of the bus driver who just smiles when passengers get on her bus vs. the driver who just silently scowls.) So, our feelings, words and acts can have real effect near and far. Also, it soothes our own hearts to wish well to others, even to difficult people. We undertake Metta with that attitude. A smile is magical!

A note on tummo: Some of the early studies of that proved to be unreliable, but there are definite physiological reasons why certain breathing practices and such can change blood chemistry, metabolism and pain tolerance to make someone able to bring some inner "heat" and to tolerate cold better. This doctor, for example, presents one of the best scientific reviews of tummo and the Wim Hof method that I have seen, very interesting (VIDEO LINK)

As to the others, I posted recently that Shikantaza seems extremely close to what is known as the pre-commentary "4th Jhana of the Suttas," originally the highest Jhana. Please have a look here (LINK) But, as you have guessed by now, Shikantaza is not a deep concentration technique, which I think is a Brahmin influence on later Buddhism (in the suttas, one of the few reliable biographical portions, Buddha describes himself as having tried, and rejected, deep concentration meditations). Ajahn Chah and others stepped away from that too, I believe.

I have been very interested in going back to the beginning of Buddhism and reading the sutras and low and behold there is a lot of talk about siddhis.

I would not assume that those are necessarily "the beginning." For example, much of the magic and mysticism in the Suttas, and especially in later South Asian interpretations of the Suttas, seems to be local and ancient beliefs that mixed into Buddhism from the surrounding culture and traditional beliefs in those old times! It was a pre-scientific age with little understanding of medicine and natural phenomena, e.g., earthquakes, storms and mental illness were thought to be brought by angry spirits, so we find such beliefs mixed into Buddhism. Now, we know better.

Also, in Buddhism, earlier is not necessarily more authentic than later, and later may be somehow a refinement on the earlier ...

It's more like I honestly don't know how I feel about it so I'm trying to see what others think. I, like you have spent time in different traditions and it's not like I suddenly said I don't believe one thing now that I'm trying a new thing. Honestly, I'm not sure if I ever stopped being Unitarian!

Well, you should definitely go around and try the different ways, then settle on the way that suits you. We are a Karate Dojo, so practice Karate, not Judo or tennis (although those are lovely ways too.) You should investigate, but maybe the best way to investigate Judo is at the Judo club, not the Karate school?

In any case, you heard "management's" official take on Siddhis magical powers and such ... and why we don't emphasize those things here in our Sangha.

Gassho, Jundo (NOT Judo )
stlah

[Jundo]

PS -

Kalama Sutta:

Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon what is in a scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon an axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over, nor upon another’s seeming ability, nor upon the consideration, ‘The monk is our teacher.’ When you yourselves know: ‘These things are wholesome, these things are blameless; these things are praised by the wise; these things, if undertaken and practiced, lead to welfare and happiness,’ then you should enter and abide in them.”

— Aṅguttara Nikāya 3.65, Kālāma Sutta

Just a side note. Many folks actually mistake the Kalama Sutta. If you read it closely, what the Buddha actually says is something more like, "Don't believe old teachers and teachings ... except for me, the Buddha, and my Teachings, because they will prove right in the end." In the Kalama, the Buddha is speaking to an audience of non-Buddhists. Bikkhu Bodhi puts it this way (in his "In the Buddha's Words" book)

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image.png

[Myo-jin]

If someone is actively pursuing Zen and working with a teacher, we try and keep their practice on what is most important in the tradition, which is finding freedom in samsara through the direct experience of reality, and living for the benefit of all beings.

Supernormal powers seem to me to conversely stem from a desire to control our experience rather than respond to life just as it is, and keep us trapped in the same patterns of attachment and aversion that lead to suffering.

Everyone is of course free to pursue the path they wish but as Zen teachers our aim is to point people to what will free them from suffering.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thanks Kokuu, you put it very eloquently here. What you say matches the conclusions I arrived at; developing powers is all very well, but if they don't free us from suffering then they stop short.

Gassho
Sattlah
M