Fasting

[Onsho]

What relationship does Soto zen have with fasting?
Dogan must have written about it.

I know most religions take part in this tradition. I know general Buddhism takes part in this tradition. I know it's not an official practice at Treeleaf.

WhatsaWhosa fasting?

Gassho
Onshō
satlah

[Kaitan]

What relationship does Soto zen have with fasting?
Dogan must have written about it.

I know most religions take part in this tradition. I know general Buddhism takes part in this tradition. I know it's not an official practice at Treeleaf.

WhatsaWhosa fasting?

Gassho
Onshō
satlah

I believe fasting is an ascetic practice, early Buddhism tends to beat down the body and put it down. Mahayana Buddhism is more life affirming so I doubt it's recommended from Zen. Also the Buddha did ascetic practices and said that they're not the way.

I'm sure the priests will come out with a better answer.



stlah, Kaitan

[Junsho]

Hi Onsho,

I am not a teacher, so my comment below is based just in my experiences.

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I honestly believe that fasting for a day can be a healthy practice to purify the body and eliminate toxins. However, doing this practice for long term seems to me against the buddhist practice.

Buddha Shakyamuni almost died doing this as an ascetic way and just after he abandoned such practice he got the supreme realization.

Zen is a simple practice, live the present moment, eat when need to eat. Sleep when need to sleep. Nothing more.

Gassho!
SatLah

[Bion]

I believe fasting is an ascetic practice, early Buddhism tends to beat down the body and put it down. Mahayana Buddhism is more life affirming so I doubt it's recommended from Zen. Also the Buddha did ascetic practices and said that they're not the way.

Actually, early Buddhism did not beat down the body. The Buddha precisely taught that the Middle Way is the Way, not indulging in sensual pleasures, and not punishing oneself. Certain ascetic practices had their place, however, as a means to cultivate certain noble qualities or to eliminate certain defilements. The Buddha himself was nothing if not life-affirming, and insisted that food, shelter and clothes were a basic necessity for monks.

What relationship does Soto zen have with fasting?
Dogan must have written about it.

I know most religions take part in this tradition. I know general Buddhism takes part in this tradition. I know it's not an official practice at Treeleaf.

WhatsaWhosa fasting?

Gassho
Onshō
satlah

Regarding fasting, the monastic rules in the Vinaya stated monks could not not have food past noon, and that was cause of various reasons, one of them being that monks were initially going out for alms in the late afternoon and would get into trouble as it was unsafe. Monks ordained by the Vinaya still keep the rule about eating at proper times. During Uposatha days, lay practitioners who undertake the precepts for a day also take the one regarding food, so they do not eat past noon.

For us, Soto Zen Mahayana folks, regarding food, there is a Nyoho approach to that too. We talk about just enough, just sufficient, or appropriate for every circumstance, plus aspects of the nature and origin of ingredients and all that. Jundo Roshi once raised the question to other Soto Zen teachers in North America and the consensus was that there is no custom of fasting within our tradition. The mindset rergarding food, however, is the same one we apply for everything else: everything in moderation, everything just as it is appropriate, handling it all with utmost respect, as it is all an expression of dharma

Hope that helps!

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I will just repeat what has been said by others above. I think you all know the images of the Buddha (before he was the Buddha, and was trying various ascetic practices to deny the body) when he went, well, a bit too far perhaps?
. 1000_F_59212376_feEP29cj0TELh0EI2iDz9XAFyTYzib7D.jpg

He practised fasting, which was thought to be one of the best ways to acquire wisdom. He lived on a grain of rice a day, and later, nothing at all. His body became so thin that his legs were like bamboo sticks, his backbone was like a rope, his chest was like an incomplete roof of a house, his eyes sank right inside, like stones in a deep well. His skin lost its golden colour and became black. In fact, he looked like a living skeleton — all bones without any flesh! He suffered terrible pain and hunger, yet continued to meditate. ... For six long years he did these practices and in spite of the great pain and suffering he did not find wisdom or the answers to his questions. He finally decided, "These austerities are not the way to enlightenment." He went begging through the village for food to build up his body. When his five friends saw this they felt disappointed. They took their bowls and robes and left, wanting nothing more to do with Gautama.

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The monks in India and South Asia will stop eating at noon ... BUT they rise at 4am, supplement during the day with juices, honey and various "almost foods" ... and in present South Asia, the custom can be a bit too much when donations go overboard. Ven. Shravasti Dhammika, a westerner who is himself now a Theravada monk writes about this problem ... Lay folks earn Karmic "merit" from donations to monks, and thus better rebirth and other Karmic benefits, so demand the right to donate ...
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In Sri Lanka while monks are eating lay people will come around to see if they need more food. Typically the monks allow food to keep being piled on their plates so that when they have finished eating there is as much left over as has been consumed. When the sweet plates are collected at the end of the meal there will be slices of cake with the icing eaten off the top, apples with one or two bites taken out of them and half eaten biscuits. And of course all this food is just thrown away. I have seen Theravadin monks from Bangladesh, a country where hunger and malnutrition are endemic, do exactly the same things. They are guaranteed a full meal tomorrow, they don’t have to pay for it and so they just don’t care. ... Many times I have had conversations that went something like this; ‘Venerable sir, would you like a cup of tea?’ ‘No thanks.’ ‘Coffee?’ ‘No thanks’. ‘Would you like some fruit juice then.’ ‘Not
now. Maybe later.’ ‘Then how about a glass of Milo?’ ‘No.’ ‘Then can I get you a drink of mineral water?’ etc, etc etc. The first visitor to the monastery will do this, then the second may go through the same routine and so on. Eventually, worn down by the relentless desire to give, you surrender, accept what’s offered, take a sip out of it just to please the donor and the rest is later tipped down the sink.
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Last time I was in Burma I found the food so rich that on several occasions I decided to fast for a day. When I didn’t come to the danasala in one place where I was staying a contingent of very formidable matrons came to see what was wrong. ‘Are you sick venerable sir ?’ ‘No, I’ve decided just not to eat today.’ Eyes popped open, jaws drop with disbelief and then the breaking down process commenced. ‘How about having just a little?’ ‘No thanks. I’d really like to give my stomach a rest.’ ‘Have some fruit then. You must keep your strength up’. ‘No, it’s quite okay’. ‘Then what about some soup’? ‘No, I’m having nothing today’ etc, etc, etc. In this instance I held my ground and the matrons went off shaking their heads with a combination of bewilderment and admiration. But it is easy to give in when one is assailed with this kind of thing day after day. It is hard to blame monks for allowing themselves to be overindulged, devotees can be very persistent. It is equally hard to blame lay people; for centuries this is what Theravada has taught them to do. Both are caught up in a vicious circle. Each spoils the other.
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MORE HERE: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a6937686.html

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When Buddhism came to China, it was decided that the cold climate necessitates food after noon, so the Chinese (and later Japanese) monks got around the Vinaya rules by calling the evening meal "medicine" rather than a "meal."
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Yakuseki 薬石

Lit., “medicine stone”; the Zen monastic supper. In Buddhism it was originally forbidden to eat after noon. However, in China, where Zen developed, it was cold in the winter, so the monks would put heated stones against their abdomens to assuage the pangs of hunger. These stones were called "medicine stones." Later a light meal, consisting of the day’s leftovers, came to be served, and this was named after the stones used to ease hunger.

While it is not representative, and I might have misunderstood, I once asked the abbot of the local Sri Lankan temple here in Tsukuba Japan if they eat in the evening. I know it gets cold, so they wear extra robes. He said that, yes, they allow themselves an evening meal.

So, our Zen way is that food is to be taken in moderation, without gluttony, as "medicine" to support our practice and lives. I think that an excellent perpective to hold and maintain.

Of course, fasting is an old and honored spiritual practice in all traditions. I know of no prohibition of healthful short fasting in Zen or Buddhism. While I will not comment on a long term fast, I think it reminds us of our attachments and how not be be glutinous, gratitude to this life for sustaining us. Nature just published a nice article on it which I saw.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00895-6

However, I cannot comment on the health aspects, although it seems like something to do with professional guidance of a doctor or professional dietician, especially if any health concerns.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Jundo]

PS - By the way, not much in Zen, but some fasting practices in the more esoteric corners of Japanese Tendai and Shingon Buddhism. Wiki Roshi has a little summary ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastin...0Han%20dynasty.

[Onsho]

Thanks so much everyone for your input!

This has put me down one heck of a rabbit hole. The last few days I’ve been looking into how different spiritual practices go about fasting. I have also done research into the health and benefits, which was challenging considering recycled information, non peer reviewed studies and general “bro science.”

Here is a summary of what I found and I will not be making health claims.

The term fasting is thrown around a lot. Fasting doesn’t start when you end your meal, but 3-4 hours after that. A better term to use is time restricted feeding.

Fasting in Islam
Generally entails abstaining from food, drink, and sexual relations from before the first light of dawn until the setting of the sun. Using Ramadan as an example, you fast for 30 days. This would (in my part of the world) give a 12 hour “feeding window”

Fasting in Judiasim
There are six days in a year when observant Jews fast. Two “Major 24 hour Fasts” call for a fast from sundown on the day before to sundown on the day itself, and four “Minor 12-14 hour Fasts” call for a fast from sunrise to sundown.

Fasting in Hinduism is a whole thing that a cant even really summarize. But LOTS of fasting going on for a variety of reasons.

Fasting in Buddhism
Looking at what Jundo provided, we can look at the example of monks getting up at 4am and not eating past noon. That would give an 8 hour “feeding window” which I have found is actually a really beneficial amount of time to go by.

There is an incredible discussion that I found from a professor of neuroscience at Stanford University that really dug into the research. He curated and simplified the information while still explaining the proper terminology and mechanics. If anyone is interested in how it works and what it can do for your health, here is the link.
www.hubermanlab.com

Here is his summery for capitalizing on the benefits for everyday life.

-Sleep 7-8 hours
-Dont eat for at least the first 60min of waking up. Tea and coffee is ok, no added sugar
-Keep a feeding window of 6-12 hours. 8 hours is optimal, make sure you can keep it on the weekends too.
-Don't eat 2-3 hours before bed

In my case I have my morning coffee, first meal at 11am, lunch whenever, and eat dinner between 6-7pm. Same feeding window as the monks, just in a different part of the day.

Sorry for running so long but its been like a sneeze I couldn’t hold much longer.

Gassho
Onsho
satlah

[Koriki]

Great summary Onsho. The studies seem to be mixed on intermittent fasting, some show benefits, some don't. I just saw one today that did show benefits over straight caloric restriction. Personally, I like it and find there are psychological/spiritual benefits. The tough thing is that it can get into eating disorder territory for those that have a history of that. For me, I see a similarity between not responding to a momentary desire to snack on something and not responding to some daydream temptation in zazen. You are able to create a space between want and do. It feels like a bit of a protest to the food industry that tells me I must have something tasty to eat whenever I want it. But again, things can get a little weird with denying yourself food, so buyer beware. Sorry to run long.

Gassho,
Koriki
s@lah