Keeping within the school?

[Shigeru]

Hello Sangha,

I have been considering a question for a little while regarding "keeping within the tradition" of our specific flavor of Buddhism inspired by the discussion under Mujin's "study" thread active recently. My main question is, to what degree should one keep to works "within" the tradition, i.e written by Soto zen authors and adjacent, and to what degree is it advisable to consider other teachings as well? My reason for asking is that since some concepts are viewed differently by different schools, I imagine that going too far outside your own school may lead to your understanding being more reflective of those sources rather than the teachings that support the practice within your own school. Which leads me to my second question, what writings can be considered universal (such as the Dhammapada?) and where does the division into schools begin in terms of sutras or other texts? Obviously a book from say, the Dalai Llama, shows pretty clearly its bias, but in other cases it may not be as obvious to someone with less experience. My main concern with this topic is considering topics and teachings that may advance my "general" understanding, but not my understanding of the Soto Zen school, if that makes sense. Apologies if there is an answer on the forums I have not been able to find

Thank you all in advance

Gassho
SatLah

[Bion]

Oh, that's a fantastic question. I'm sure Roshi will give you a comprehensive answer. I'll share a little of my own experience. Buddhism, as you say, has many flavors, and different traditions can teach quite differently on certain topics. Even within one specific school teachings can be super different. For example, Jundo Roshi emphasizes the radical equanimity of zazen, emptiness as oneness rather that "lack", he emphasizes not being too concerned with posture etc Within our same Soto Zen school, some are adamant that zazen is literally just keeping the posture, it's got nothing to do with the mind doing or not doing something. Nishijima Roshi himself was a promoter of zazen as a specific posture, that has a concrete effect, having to do with the nervous system. So, imagine stepping out of one specific school. Now, this is where one needs to have a teacher and good spiritual advisors. I love the Pali Canon, and am a firm believer in the truthfulness of what the Buddha taught. I appreciate teachers like master Sheng Yen, the Dalai Lama, Guo Gu, Thich Nhat Hanh, some bhantes and bhikkhus. I, found that these years spent studying Soto Zen, under a good teacher, gave me a good foundation to be able to investigate in all directions, without losing my way. Master Dogen said there is no such thing as different schools of Zen, or Buddhism, and Nishijima Roshi insisted that we practice buddhism... period. However ... one needs to look at things through a clear lens.
My bottom line is: I believe one should have a good teacher they rely on, a good foundation in basic buddhist concepts, a good foundation in the practices and doctrine of the specific school one is a part of and then one can investigate freely. Most of the time it's not a matter of whether something is true or not, but rather the perspective used to approach it or view it. Those are the subtleties of buddhist teachings.

Sorry for running a bit long

Gassh
sat lah

[Seiryu]

My bottom line is: I believe one should have a good teacher they rely on, a good foundation in basic buddhist concepts, a good foundation in the practices and doctrine of the specific school one is a part of and then one can investigate freely. Most of the time it's not a matter of whether something is true or not, but rather the perspective used to approach it or view it. Those are the subtleties of buddhist teachings.

_/\_ Love how this is expressed.

I will say from my expeirnce, as somenoen who has pulled from many places before is that to stay within a tradition is not to close the gate to others but to sit firmly where you are, allowing the teachings to settle deeply. The risk in wandering too far is not in encountering other views, but in never truly meeting your own. Soto Zen is vast and one could spend a lifetime with Dōgen alone and never touch the bottom.

At the same time, truth is truth, no matter where it appears. The Dhammapada, Tibetan expressions, the teachings of the old wandering masters, all of that are not owned by any one school. But each school has its own expression, its own way of walking the path. Its own flavor. If we listen too broadly, we may gather many voices but never learn our own

Martial arts is a great parallel to this, I feel. One can most definitely learn from many different styles, as in one sense it all comes down to self defense, but unless one has a home base to anchor in, one never fully sees how deep one’s own tradition can go.


Gassho.
Sat/Lah
Seiryu

[Jundo]

Hmmm. Yes, interesting. It is a bit like asking whether, playing football, one can also play baseball. Both are excellent sports, running on the very same ground. Yet, football is football, and baseball is baseball.

As Bion suggests, there are even different coaches recommending different ways to play football, even within the very same school! RInzai is a bit different from Soto, and even some flavors within Soto. All on the same rich ground!

There are times when things mesh nicely, e.g., in Spring, play baseball, in Fall play football. However, do not try to play football with a bat, nor baseball with goal posts.

So, I cannot answer. I simply advise that, when you read various teachers or writings, know that they come from their own "coach" or game.

We have our Recommended Book and Media list here which, naturally, is weighted toward Soto Zen ... It also has some general materials.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/the-beginner-s-place/1029-suggested-books-media-on-zen-practice

I also advise that, when sitting Zazen ... sit Zazen with nothing else to do or lacking in the whole world. After, perhaps, you can delve into other things. It is something like saying, "When playing football, in football season, just play football ... not baseball." Maybe after you can dabble in some baseball. Shikantaza is very unique, in its empahsis on radical goallessness, sitting to sit, nothing else to attain. So, when sitting such way, just sit just way. After the bell rings, one can do something else perhaps.

Dogen said there is no such thing as different schools of Zen, or Buddhism, and Nishijima Roshi insisted that we practice buddhism

Hah! They both said this, but also meant that folks should thus agree with them on what is true Zen and Buddhism! Truly.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Bion]

Hah! They both said this, but also meant that folks should thus agree with them on what is true Zen and Buddhism! Truly.

Gassho, J
stlah

ah, well of course.. there is always the FINE PRINT

gassho
sat lah

[Shigeru]

Thank you all for your thoughts, this has been one of the bigger questions I've been contemplating since joining the sangha, so it is wonderful to have it clarified!

Gassho
SatLah

[Seiko]

Hello Sangha,

I have been considering a question for a little while regarding "keeping within the tradition" of our specific flavor of Buddhism inspired by the discussion under Mujin's "study" thread active recently. My main question is, to what degree should one keep to works "within" the tradition, i.e written by Soto zen authors and adjacent, and to what degree is it advisable to consider other teachings as well? My reason for asking is that since some concepts are viewed differently by different schools, I imagine that going too far outside your own school may lead to your understanding being more reflective of those sources rather than the teachings that support the practice within your own school. Which leads me to my second question, what writings can be considered universal (such as the Dhammapada?) and where does the division into schools begin in terms of sutras or other texts? Obviously a book from say, the Dalai Llama, shows pretty clearly its bias, but in other cases it may not be as obvious to someone with less experience. My main concern with this topic is considering topics and teachings that may advance my "general" understanding, but not my understanding of the Soto Zen school, if that makes sense. Apologies if there is an answer on the forums I have not been able to find

Thank you all in advance

Gassho
SatLah

Hi Shigeru,

I have to remind you to please take a pinch of salt - as I am a novice in training, with much to learn.

When my shoes begin to wear out, I may start window shopping, looking at new shoes, finding out what is available. Then before my old shoes are worn through, I'll need to decide which shoes to buy, go into the shop, try them on, make the purchase. After I have the new shoes, I get used to them, they get used to me. Then I just might allow myself to admire other people's new shoes, with the knowledge that I chose the right one's for myself, and they fit perfectly.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

[Shui_Di]

Gasho,

I learn about Zazen from Jundo more than decade ago. And then I also wandering around to learn from other tradition, before I got a big turbulence of my life, and I just remember what Jundo Roshi taught about Zazen Shikantaza and it save me.

From what I understand, each tradition has their own approach to the Dharma, but has the same goal.

You may learn boxing, Jujitsu, Karate. But the goal is to win inside the ring.


If I can give suggestions from my experience, sometimes wandering around is needed before you choose a school you want to enter. But don't wonder too long, because you will just wasting your time. Once you enter a school, focus on it, till you master it. Dharma is like vast ocean, method is like the river. There are a lot of rivers, different in shape and size, different location, but all leads to the ocean. But if you jump from one river to the other, you won't arrive at the ocean.

Bruce Lee said, instead of you learn 1000 form of Kungfu, better you learn one form but train it 1000 times. Just like Mike Tyson's punch. He didn't need many punches, just one punch was enough to knock his opponent out.

From my experience once again, Zazen is the most direct river to the ocean of Dharma. This is the goaless goal, when we sit not to be a Buddha, but as the Buddha.

When the water enters the ocean there is no different between the water from west or east. All become one. Here, there is just one Buddha Dharma. One truth. But the way can be different from one river to the other.

So keeping the tradition is very important, not because we think ours is the right one the other is wrong. But because after we choose which path is suitable for us, we want to focus our time and energy so the path we enter will give fruition, lead us to the Ocean of Dharma, which is the Buddha Nature itself.

This is from what I understand from my experience.

Gassho,
Mujo

[Jundo]

Shui_Di
Member

• Join Date: Apr 2008

Shui Di! One of the original Treeleafers!

In this Kung Fu, we give up all notion of win and lose, even life and death ... yet keep practicing and training sincerely and diligently, meeting circumstances as they come. Avoiding anger and violence as best we can, do what needs to be done to Save All Sentient Beings.

Gasho, J
stlah

[Shui_Di]

Shui Di! One of the original Treeleafers!

In this Kung Fu, we give up all notion of win and lose, even life and death ... yet keep practicing and training sincerely and diligently, meeting circumstances as they come. Avoiding anger and violence as best we can, do what needs to be done to Save All Sentient Beings.

Gasho, J
stlah

Thank you Jundo Roshi for the teaching

_/|\_. Gassho.

Satlah (anyway, is it a new word?)

[Ankai]

Gasho,

I learn about Zazen from Jundo more than decade ago.

Hey, man, how are you??

ST
LAH

[Shui_Di]

Hi Ankai, I am doing fine. After wandering around. Having a lot doubt about even Buddhism, I tried Nembutsu, Theravada Vipassana, Tantric practice, and somehow I feel like all are back to Zazen.

For example, Nembutsu. The goal is to be reborn in Amitabha pureland. But to be reborn there, means the mind is reborn. Understanding that mind is no different with Amitabha is being reborn in the Buddha pureland. So, I find it is a beautiful tradition and method. But in Zen we are even more direct. When we sit Zazen dropping the body and mind, (even there is nothing to be dropped), in Zazen we taste the union with the ocean of Buddhas. So why look for another pureland. Zazen is pureland. Once we sit in Zazen, that's already a pureland.

And it is also with Tantric practice. It has a lot of ceremonial thing as its method. The goal is Mahamudra or Dzogchen which is the union between method and wisdom. Union between oneself to the Buddha Nature. Maybe for some people they like using a many variation of methods like in Vajrayana school. But in Zen, we keep it simple and direct. Zazen itself is no different with Mahamudra or Dzogchen. (In my understanding). The style of our Soto Zen way shikantaza, is very direct to the core of Dharma. And once again, I am back to Zazen.

And when I got turbulence of life, I have no time to use many method. And in my experience, Zazen is the most practical, direct, and here I am. Back to treeleaf to meet Jundo Roshi and all treeleafers.

Gassho,
Shui Di /Mujo