Buddhist texts related to the double bind problem

[Douglas]

Can anybody recommend which Buddhist texts address the problem of double bind in thought? It would seem to me that reading..well..maybe not beneficial but..IDK..something.

The more I sit, the more I find it hard to use any word to describe Zen, which isn't a criticism. It's just what is happening.

I am curious as to how some of you first encountered this "problem" of the double bind (quotes because maybe it's not a problem?) and your experience with it?

Gassho,
SatLah
Doug

[mdonnoe]

Doug,

I admit that I hadn't heard of the term "double bind," and so had to google it - forgive my ignorance.

Can you unpack what you mean here a little, or maybe expand on your understanding and the question that's arisen for you, so that I / we can better understand what you're asking?

Thank you!

Michael
SatLah

[Rich]

This is from Dogens genjo koan commentary by kanahashi
This is something that can be understood only by those who have departed from all views and attained true liberation. It cannot be seen with the eyes of those who are eager to be enlightened. Genjo koan comes forth where this eagerness is removed. What happens at the place where you go beyond being and non-being? Only after going beyond do the three realms come together and sentient beings come together. This is Genjo koan. To tell you the truth, even when we are deluded we are within the three realms. Even when we are enlightened we are within the three realms. The three realms do not get riled up at the time of delusion. The three realms do not get crushed at the time of enlightenment.

is this the double bind?

sat/lah

[Jundo]

(Just a note that the above lovely words which Rich quotes are Tanahashi's lovely words about Dogen and Genjo Koan, not Dogen's words.)

If I understand reference to the double bind, Zen is filled with many incongruities which we harmonize by, in enlightenment, knowing two ways at once (I like to call it "like two sides of a no sided coin.")

For example, there is no you, no me, no this or that, no time, no birth and death ... when known in the flowing wholeness of all, in which all distinction and separation drops away in the "cosmic chowder" ** There is just the great boiling chowder, all ingredients, bubbles coming and going, forgotten in the whole bowl.

And yet there is also me and you, this and that, time, birth and death ... clams, creme, carrots ...

All at once, like knowing life one way out of one eye, the other way out of the other eye, with both eyes open together providing clarity ... you-no-you, time-timeless, death-deathless.

Like that.

So many of the old Koan stories are about this harmonization. Really ALL the Zen texts are about this realization and resolution.

Gassho, J

stlah


** Chowder ... another salute to New England Rich.

[Douglas]

This is from Dogens genjo koan commentary by kanahashi
This is something that can be understood only by those who have departed from all views and attained true liberation. It cannot be seen with the eyes of those who are eager to be enlightened. Genjo koan comes forth where this eagerness is removed. What happens at the place where you go beyond being and non-being? Only after going beyond do the three realms come together and sentient beings come together. This is Genjo koan. To tell you the truth, even when we are deluded we are within the three realms. Even when we are enlightened we are within the three realms. The three realms do not get riled up at the time of delusion. The three realms do not get crushed at the time of enlightenment.

is this the double bind?

sat/lah

Thanks Jundo!
sat/lah

[Douglas]

(Just a note that the above lovely words which Rich quotes are Tanahashi's lovely words about Dogen and Genjo Koan, not Dogen's words.)

If I understand reference to the double bind, Zen is filled with many incongruities which we harmonize by, in enlightenment, knowing two ways at once (I like to call it "like two sides of a no sided coin.")

For example, there is no you, no me, no this or that, no time, no birth and death ... when known in the flowing wholeness of all, in which all distinction and separation drops away in the "cosmic chowder" ** There is just the great boiling chowder, all ingredients, bubbles coming and going, forgotten in the whole bowl.

And yet there is also me and you, this and that, time, birth and death ... clams, creme, carrots ...

All at once, like knowing life one way out of one eye, the other way out of the other eye, with both eyes open together providing clarity ... you-no-you, time-timeless, death-deathless.

Like that.

So many of the old Koan stories are about this harmonization. Really ALL the Zen texts are about this realization and resolution.

Gassho, J

stlah

** Chowder ... another salute to New England Rich.

Very true! I suppose all Koans are basically double binds. Haku's "what is the sound of one hand" seems this way. Other non-Koan double binds I can think of are "Be spontaneous!" or the classic "Don't think of an Elephant". IDK why I didn't think of the Genjo Koan, you talked about that just the other month!

Gassho, Doug
Stlah

[Onsho]

Great, now i want chowder.

Gassho
Onsho
Satlah