Zen and guided meditation vs bare awareness

[Guest]

Hi,
As a priest in training, I can only speak about my own experience, my words are my opinions, please take with a pinch of salt.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, the phrase 'bare awareness' surprises me. I am sure it's just choice of words. And words/language is often a problem for me. So, to me, the full awareness of Shikantaza seems not bare, but very complete.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

Words have different meanings for people so precise definitions are nice (that’ll be the scientist in me, some would just say the pedant in me), but I think I know what was meant.

Bare awareness sounds fine to me, fwiw, I’d assume it refers to unembellished awareness, nothing extra (things as they are without telling ourselves stories about it), which is fullness in itself.

at least that’s how I’ve been practicing, perhaps I’m missing something?

Myojin

gassho

-Sattlah

[Douglas]

Jundo,

In mindfulness training, such profound concepts are not introduced directly. It turns out that people tend to stumble on these things and mindfulness teachers have to be equipped to handle these types of questions. I have encountered things like, " I have experienced that when I am noticing thoughts and feelings, that I begin to wonder, who is it that is noticing, who is it that is witnessing? I have seen people arrive at this place of realizing no-self and the overarching thing I have witnessed is people arriving at a great sense of peace when they get out of their own way and just be.

There is no "back door" as it were. But, Jon Kabat-Zinn may have hid it in some ways out of convention. But, it still comes through in the teachings, which is why I do not know why more traditional Buddhists get so confused about this when surveying mindfulness-based interventions. In Full Catastrophe Living, toward the end of the book, he talks about finding our own way through choiceness awareness or open awareness. In his later books like Coming to Our Senses and Wherever You Go, There You Are, it is very clear that he is coming from a Buddhist Perspective.

The attached document tells a lot of where JKZ was coming from in developing MBSR. Not that I agree with all of it. JKZ's first teacher was my third teacher Zen Master Seung Sahn. I did not even know Jon had studied with him until later. So, we are somewhat cut from the same cloth, but Jon is Jon and Daiman is Daiman. Each in his own Dharma expression.

I sincerely urge anyone with curiosity or perhaps confused about mindfulness-based interventions to read this article. It is with the time to read. It explains a lot about the crossover between "mindfulness" and Buddhism.

I think a quote from this article begins to lend some idea of where he was coming from. And, let me be honest, I had my own challenges with Jon, some pleasant and some not so pleasant, but that is usually how it goes with a teacher-student relationship. Not always an easy ride.


Gassho,
Daiman

Good Morning Daiman (as I write this!)

Thank you for that. I've read Jon's books as well. Very interesting.
Gassho,
Doug

[Guest]

Jundo,

In mindfulness training, such profound concepts are not introduced directly. It turns out that people tend to stumble on these things and mindfulness teachers have to be equipped to handle these types of questions. I have encountered things like, " I have experienced that when I am noticing thoughts and feelings, that I begin to wonder, who is it that is noticing, who is it that is witnessing? I have seen people arrive at this place of realizing no-self and the overarching thing I have witnessed is people arriving at a great sense of peace when they get out of their own way and just be.

There is no "back door" as it were. But, Jon Kabat-Zinn may have hid it in some ways out of convention. But, it still comes through in the teachings, which is why I do not know why more traditional Buddhists get so confused about this when surveying mindfulness-based interventions. In Full Catastrophe Living, toward the end of the book, he talks about finding our own way through choiceness awareness or open awareness. In his later books like Coming to Our Senses and Wherever You Go, There You Are, it is very clear that he is coming from a Buddhist Perspective.

The attached document tells a lot of where JKZ was coming from in developing MBSR. Not that I agree with all of it. JKZ's first teacher was my third teacher Zen Master Seung Sahn. I did not even know Jon had studied with him until later. So, we are somewhat cut from the same cloth, but Jon is Jon and Daiman is Daiman. Each in his own Dharma expression.

I sincerely urge anyone with curiosity or perhaps confused about mindfulness-based interventions to read this article. It is with the time to read. It explains a lot about the crossover between "mindfulness" and Buddhism.

I think a quote from this article begins to lend some idea of where he was coming from. And, let me be honest, I had my own challenges with Jon, some pleasant and some not so pleasant, but that is usually how it goes with a teacher-student relationship. Not always an easy ride.


Gassho,
Daiman

I wanted to add to my previous post since in reviewing it, I think I left out something very important.

I think that one of the areas in mindfulness, even in the more disciplined mindfulness-based interventions that diviates significantly in what we do in Zen, and in Soto Zen in particular is that in Zazen, (primarily Shikantaza), when we sit, we just sit for the sake of sitting. Mindfulness misses the point that in Soto Zen in particular, Zazen is seen as a sacred act because when we sit, we are taking up the activity of a Buddha. And as such, we are not doing anything special...not trying to achieve wellbeing or a healthy body and mind as mindfulness may emphasize. In the wisdom of doing nothing, everything is complete in that moment. With this intention, we are reminding ourselves that this is what we are doing (even if it is really doing nothing at all). We do it, because it is the doing of a Buddha, that is something mindfulness does not directly point to. When we are sitting with everything just as it is, then we are adding nothing extra and when nothing extra is added, we manifest the completeness of everything right here in this moment. Mindfulness does point out that even if unpleasant sensations or thoughts come up, that is in the completeness...if pleasant thoughts, that too is in the completeness. It recognizes that there is a difference between getting caught up in the content of thoughts and feelings and just being with thoughts and feelings. But in mindfulness, it can be rather vague that in that being, in that noticing, everything is perfect and complete just as it is ... and it has a function. That function is that within the realization of the interdependence of everything, we have a grave responsibility to care for all of it. This is what we would call magnanimous mind.

Okumura Roshi in describing magnanimous mind said,

Magnanimous mind is like an ocean or a mountain: calm and steady, yet accepting and nourishing countless beings and situations without differentiation. The ocean is serene because it accepts the many rivers without resisting.

This nourishing countless beings is the direction of the bodhisattva which is the direction of our practice. This is a big piece that is missing in mindfulness. In mindfulness, we hope that people recognize that through understanding the source of their own suffering, they then understand the source of others' suffering and then see the interconnectivity of everyone and everything and can only want to help all beings. But, in mindfulness we can only hope that people make this discovery. In Zen we emphasize this and we teach this over and over again. I guess in some ways we all hope that people "get" this important point of practice, but Zen being a part of Mahayana Buddhism, makes it abundantly clear, whereas in mindfulness, it is not so clear.

Sorry to run long here, but as someone who works in the world as a mindfulness teacher and is also a Zen Priest, helping to clarify these things for others and for myself, I feel is of great importance.

Again, please take what I say here with a grain of salt. I may be certified to teach mindfulness and can comment on these things, but within the wide ocean that is Soto Zen, I am still a priest in training.

Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAH

[Douglas]

I wanted to add to my previous post since in reviewing it, I think I left out something very important.

I think that one of the areas in mindfulness, even in the more disciplined mindfulness-based interventions that falls short in what we do in Zen, and in Soto Zen in particular is that in Zazen, (primarily Shikantaza), is that when we sit, we just sit for the sake of sitting. Mindfulness misses the point that in Soto Zen in particular, Zazen is seen as a sacred act because when we sit, we are taking up the activity of a Buddha. And as such, we are not doing anything special...not trying to achieve wellbeing or a healthy body and mind as mindfulness may emphasize. In the wisdom of doing nothing, everything is complete in that moment. With this intention, we are reminding ourselves that this is what we are doing (even if it is really doing nothing at all). We do it, because it is the doing of a Buddha, that is something mindfulness does not directly point to. When we are sitting with everything just as it is, then we are adding nothing extra and when nothing extra is added, we manifest the completeness of everything right there in this moment. Mindfulness does point out that even if unpleasant sensations or thoughts come up, that is in the completeness...if pleasant thoughts, that too is in the completeness. It recognizes that there is a difference between getting caught up in the content of thoughts and feelings and just being with thoughts and feelings. But in mindfulness, it can be rather vague that in that being, in that noticing, everything is perfect and complete just as it is and that is the As Uchiyama points out, during Zazen all the thoughts and feelings that come up are the scenery of zazen. So, we just watch all of it, and even the watching is part of the scenery. I am the scene and the scenery in all of Zazen.

Hello Daiman,

I find what you said "and even the watching is part of the scenery. I am the scene and the scenery in all of Zazen" to be quite profound. It's where my over-analytical mind starts to run in circles like a dog chasing its own tail! I become a little frustrated when I realize I'm doing intellectual loops in my head regarding Zen, but then I believe it was Alan Watts who pointed out that dogs chase their tails for fun, and humans like to do the same in their heads in regards to thinking, so maybe I shouldn't beat myself up over it.

Gassho,
Doug

[Guest]

Hello Daiman,

I find what you said "and even the watching is part of the scenery. I am the scene and the scenery in all of Zazen" to be quite profound. It's where my over-analytical mind starts to run in circles like a dog chasing its own tail! I become a little frustrated when I realize I'm doing intellectual loops in my head regarding Zen, but then I believe it was Alan Watts who pointed out that dogs chase their tails for fun, and humans like to do the same in their heads in regards to thinking, so maybe I shouldn't beat myself up over it.

Gassho,
Doug

Hi Doug,

Yes. Even the over-analytical mind that starts to run in circles is the scenery of zazen. Hopefully there is a noticing that this is happening and in the noticing we already come back to the present moment awareness in zazen. In my experience, the more I notice it is happening as just the natural activity of the mind, I no longer fight it, and without the fight, I just land back in the fullness of zazen again. It is the fight that makes it difficult.

Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAH

[Jundo]

... when we sit, we just sit for the sake of sitting. Mindfulness misses the point that in Soto Zen in particular, Zazen is seen as a sacred act because when we sit, we are taking up the activity of a Buddha. And as such, we are not doing anything special...not trying to achieve wellbeing or a healthy body and mind as mindfulness may emphasize. In the wisdom of doing nothing, everything is complete in that moment. With this intention, we are reminding ourselves that this is what we are doing (even if it is really doing nothing at all). We do it, because it is the doing of a Buddha, that is something mindfulness does not directly point to. When we are sitting with everything just as it is, then we are adding nothing extra and when nothing extra is added, we manifest the completeness of everything right here in this moment. ...

Dai, I would sue you for plagiarism, for taking the words out of my own mouth ... . Lovely.

I have downloaded your article for reading in the night in the hostel where I am staying.

I have one question:

It turns out that people tend to stumble on these things and mindfulness teachers have to be equipped to handle these types of questions.

In Zen, traditionally these teachings of "no self," emptiness and the deep inter-penetration of all things, dropping of the self/other divide and such, were much more front and center. You are maybe describing something which, in most corners of western mindfulness (and, frankly, even in many corners of modern Zen these days), is not talked about so directly, is left to bubble up on its own in the meditator, and maybe is not emphasized at all in other corners of mindfulness. I sometimes get the feeling from some Zen teachers that, in their opinion, talking about such things "too soon" might confuse and alienate sitters, so better to leave to later when they have attained a certain depth, or barely talk about at all (others of us ... I am one ... feel that it is best to raise these teachings about right from the start.) Am I interpreting the situation in mindfulness wrong by saying that? Where do you come out on this question?

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Guest]

Dai, I would sue you for plagiarism, for taking the words out of my own mouth ... . Lovely.

I have downloaded your article for reading in the night in the hostel where I am staying.

I have one question:



In Zen, traditionally these teachings of "no self," emptiness and the deep inter-penetration of all things, dropping of the self/other divide and such, were much more front and center. You are maybe describing something which, in most corners of western mindfulness (and, frankly, even in many corners of modern Zen these days), is not talked about so directly, is left to bubble up on its own in the meditator, and maybe is not emphasized at all in other corners of mindfulness. I sometimes get the feeling from some Zen teachers that, in their opinion, talking about such things "too soon" might confuse and alienate sitters, so better to leave to later when they have attained a certain depth, or barely talk about at all (others of us ... I am one ... feel that it is best to raise these teachings about right from the start.) Am I interpreting the situation in mindfulness wrong by saying that? Where do you come out on this question?

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

Ah Jundo, you pose a very interesting and profound question. I think if done unskillfully, bringing it up too soon can alienate sitters and fly right over the heads of very sincere people who want to find their way by presenting a language and practices that are not conducive to their immediate need. I think in mindfulness, we want to convey this message, but it will always stop short, in my opinion, to the deeper dive into what is encountered in "no-self," and the interdependence of everything. JKZ found this too risky for those not wanting to encounter Eastern approaches and in some ways handled it with “kid gloves.”I sincerely think, from witnessing your Dharma talks, that you are skillful at raising up these teachings right from the start with an attendance to just the right blend. Mindfulness leans to the pragmatic and conventional. Your approach also leans in this way, but does not throw out the baby with the bath water. It is very difficult to navigate being able to distill the teachings into a very matter of fact/daily- living application while still embracing the original teachings of our ancestors of the Soto tradition. So, I personally think it is really about the skillfulness of the teacher in how this will land with each practitioner. I practice mindfulness with the people that I work with because it is a way for me to bring the Dharma to as many people as I can in helping them to alleviate suffering. All is skillful means. When one is ready for the deeper dive, then as far as I am concerned (and is the agreement of many of my mindfulness teacher colleagues), we offer the possibility of exploring these things through more traditional methods e.g., Buddhisist practice, if the person is willing to do so. Otherwise, if this is not the person’s inclination, at least some understanding into the cause and way to ease suffering may be enough......for now.

Gassho,
Daiman
St/LAH

[Jundo]

Daiman.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Douglas]

As somebody who only recently started doing regular Zazen, but played around with mindfulness for many years (irregular practice), I can say that I am hesitant when somebody asks about my practice to talk about Zen directly. It seems easier and more accepting if I just say, "I'm going to practice concentrating in meditation in a while." I don't know if this is evading, but if they are more interested, I figure they will ask about it.

Also, the posts here remind me of what Steve Hagen at the Dharma Field Center in Minnesota said regarding a discussion he had with his teacher Dainin Katagiri. Summarizing, Katagiri had told Steve not to tell people that Zazen was good for nothing because nobody would come to the Zendo! I believe the point he was making was that starting with that was diving into the deep end of the pool a bit too soon. Maybe mindfulness could be considered the shallow end of the same pool?

Gassho,
Doug
SAT/LAH

[Jundo]

Also, the posts here remind me of what Steve Hagen at the Dharma Field Center in Minnesota said regarding a discussion he had with his teacher Dainin Katagiri. Summarizing, Katagiri had told Steve not to tell people that Zazen was good for nothing because nobody would come to the Zendo! I believe the point he was making was that starting with that was diving into the deep end of the pool a bit too soon. Maybe mindfulness could be considered the shallow end of the same pool?

Gassho,
Doug
SAT/LAH

I tend to feel that, if properly explained, folks ... even beginners ... can understand that this "good for nothing" does not really mean "good for nothing." It is possible to explain, simply and cogently, that people run around all day looking for pay-offs and things that please, the denial of which results in frustration. This is the source of mental suffering. However, when we sit in the completion of Zazen, sitting just to sit, seeking nothing more and needing nothing more than sitting while sitting ... all is fulfilled, thus no suffering possible.

It really is not rocket science, although a bit against our usual nature to judge things lacking, then go looking for some payoff.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Guest]

As somebody who only recently started doing regular Zazen, but played around with mindfulness for many years (irregular practice), I can say that I am hesitant when somebody asks about my practice to talk about Zen directly. It seems easier and more accepting if I just say, "I'm going to practice concentrating in meditation in a while." I don't know if this is evading, but if they are more interested, I figure they will ask about it.

Also, the posts here remind me of what Steve Hagen at the Dharma Field Center in Minnesota said regarding a discussion he had with his teacher Dainin Katagiri. Summarizing, Katagiri had told Steve not to tell people that Zazen was good for nothing because nobody would come to the Zendo! I believe the point he was making was that starting with that was diving into the deep end of the pool a bit too soon. Maybe mindfulness could be considered the shallow end of the same pool?

Gassho,
Doug
SAT/LAH

Hi Doug, I am not sure I would say mindfulness is the shallow end of the pool, but it is certainly not the part of the pool right under the diving board where the deep dive takes place. I say this only because I have witnessed some pretty profound realizations that people have within mindfulness practice. However, when people arrive at that profound realization, then what? This is just my own experience mind you, but in mindfulness classes I have led, the ones that have had these experiences and want to continue their practice end up looking for a sangha. Typically, these sanghas are Buddhist sanghas. There is a local Zen group that I host, and a good number of the people there have taken MBSR with me or with another mindfulness teacher and are looking to further explore the Dharma as part of their ongoing practice. Typically, (and again this is just my experience) the sitting groups that form after a formal class, and are simply doing mindfulness, and not further teaching the Dharma end up just being sitting groups typically with no one at the helm. That may be fine for some folks, but Buddhism, even with the strong emphasis on sangha and promoting a community of practitioners, it also equally emphasizes a student-teacher relationship, like we have here at Treeleaf. Jundo does his best to keep his eyes on the road and his hands upon the wheel, to paraphrase Morrison Roshi. doing his best to keep us moving in the right direction.

The following quote is taken a bit out of context here, but I still think it applies. I believe that Dogen in his Fukanzazengi, might have said this about wellness-driven mindfulness practice:

You are playing in the entranceway, but you are still short of the vital path of emancipation.

That being said, if someone, through mindfulness, can find peace and a better way to live and alleviate suffering, I am all for it. But, as Dogen says and as Jundo has said as well, it is not moving in the direction that is the embodiment of enlightenment that we do with our Soto practice.

I am a priest in training here at Treeleaf which means to please take what I say here with a grain of salt.

Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAH

[Douglas]

Hi Doug, I am not sure I would say mindfulness is the shallow end of the pool only because I have witnessed some pretty profound realizations that people have within mindfulness practice. However, when people arrive at that profound realization, then what? This is just my own experience mind you, but in mindfulness classes I have led, the ones that have had these experiences and want to continue their practice end up looking for a sangha. Typically, these sanghas are Buddhist sanghas. There is a local Zen group that I host, and a good number of the people there have taken MBSR with me or with another mindfulness teacher and are looking to further explore the Dharma as part of their ongoing practice. Typically, (and again this is just my experience) the sitting groups that form after a formal class, and are simply doing mindfulness, and not further teaching the Dharma end up just being sitting groups typically with no one at the helm. That may be fine for some folks, but Buddhism, even with the strong emphasis on sangha and promoting a community of practitioners, it also equally emphasizes a student-teacher relationship, like we have here at Treeleaf. Jundo does his best to keep his eyes on the road and his hands upon the wheel, to paraphrase Morrison Roshi. doing his best to keep us moving in the right direction.

Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAH

Hi Daiman,

I guess that makes sense. Anyone can have a realization. As far as local groups are concerned, I'm a bit jealous of people who have a local group near them and thankful for Treeleaf. I live 50 miles south of Washington D.C., and there are literally NO Zen sangha groups near me. I was pretty surprised when I did my research and couldn't find any. There was one Soto group that was here before the pandemic but the leader of the group left for New Mexico and it fell apart. I think there is a Theravada Buddhist temple in the area, but that's it. I'd have to drive north about an hour to find a group. I've thought about creating a meetup for weekly mindfulness practice at my library (they have rooms we can check out) and just seeing who shows up. It wouldn't be talking about Zen, I suppose, but just having a group could be helpful.

Gassho,
Doug
SAT/LAH

[Guest]

Hi Daiman,

I guess that makes sense. Anyone can have a realization. As far as local groups are concerned, I'm a bit jealous of people who have a local group near them and thankful for Treeleaf. I live 50 miles south of Washington D.C., and there are literally NO Zen sangha groups near me. I was pretty surprised when I did my research and couldn't find any. There was one Soto group that was here before the pandemic but the leader of the group left for New Mexico and it fell apart. I think there is a Theravada Buddhist temple in the area, but that's it. I'd have to drive north about an hour to find a group. I've thought about creating a meetup for weekly mindfulness practice at my library (they have rooms we can check out) and just seeing who shows up. It wouldn't be talking about Zen, I suppose, but just having a group could be helpful.

Gassho,
Doug
SAT/LAH

Yes. Create it and they will come. Just a place to sit together. How wonderful.

Gassho,
Daiman

[Jundo]

I've thought about creating a meetup for weekly mindfulness practice at my library (they have rooms we can check out) and just seeing who shows up. It wouldn't be talking about Zen, I suppose, but just having a group could be helpful.

We have quite a few members doing this. I just tell the organizers that it is important to tell people coming that you are the organizer of the sitting, not a teacher, although you can guide new folks in the very basics (posture, breath, being non-judgmental etc. during sitting) if you feel comfortable to do so, or point them here for harder questions. We have a little guidebook on organizing such a group in your town or workplace, should you ever go ahead and do that.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Douglas]

We have quite a few members doing this. I just tell the organizers that it is important to tell people coming that you are the organizer of the sitting, not a teacher, although you can guide new folks in the very basics (posture, breath, being non-judgmental etc. during sitting) if you feel comfortable to do so, or point them here for harder questions. We have a little guidebook on organizing such a group in your town or workplace, should you ever go ahead and do that.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

Hi Jundo,

Thank you for that. Can you send me a link or point to the location for the guidebook? I'm very interested in reading that.

Gassho,
Doug
SAT/LAH