Does the zen tradition encourage or not recommend guided meditation practice?
It would seem there’s different opinions on this.
Gassho
SAT/LAH
It would seem there’s different opinions on this.
Gassho
SAT/LAH
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Hi Douglas,
It’s not something I’ve ever heard of, the only zen instruction I’ve ever had was either Shikantaza or Sussikukan breath counting.
When I was active in a western tradition, guided meditation, visualization, ‘travelling in the spirit vision’ was part of the training, and interesting in itself, but I’ve never encountered it in a Buddhist context.
I think some Buddhist traditions have meditations of various objects, a rotting corpse, bones, sickness etc, presumably to hammer home the reality of impermanence.
Perhaps more experienced folks have had other experiences?
Gassho
Myojin
-sattlah
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I'm a priest in training, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I've never come across guided meditation in Soto Zen, unless metta verses are considered guided meditation. Even those are taken from another tradition. I believe there are guided meditations in Vajrayana Buddhism, and in some other Buddhist schools. This doesn't mean that guided meditation is bad, just not a part of Soto Zen. I sometimes do guided relaxation meditation - it just is something other than Zen.
Gassho, Onkai
Sat lah美道 Bidou Beautiful Way
恩海 Onkai Merciful/Kind Ocean
I have a lot to learn; take anything I say that sounds like teaching with a grain of salt.Comment
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Hi Douglas,
Guided meditations can be very powerful, and there is nothing wrong with practicing them sometimes if one wishes, but they are a different way from Shikantaza. There is something powerful about Shikantaza's way of Just Sitting, with trust in one's own heart that this is complete, the one place to be and one thing in need of doing right now, fulfilled ipso facto by the very act of being right here, untangled from thoughts, letting emotions be. (Hmmm, I guess I could make a kind of 'guided meditation' for Shikantaza in which, at the start I say the above ... maybe in one of those soothing ASMR voices ... you actually gave me a notion!
)
But then, the sitter must sit on their own, finding the faith and trust in such Truth in their own bones, on their own. The training wheels come off, and the bike rider must ride on their own. We might call Shikantaza a "self-non-self guided meditation."
The difference between Shikantaza and most kinds of meditation, including guiding meditations, is that most seek to induce some tranquilized peace or other special state of experience or visualization as a goal (like Myojin says). In contrast, there is something incredibly wise about Shikantaza's teachings that the ultimate peace, wisdom and "special state" comes from dropping the seeking and need for special states.
Gassho, Jundo
stlah
PS - Onkai is right, the Metta Verses we sometimes recite here have aspects of being a guided meditation on Loving Kindness.Last edited by Jundo; 06-14-2024, 01:58 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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This was actually one of the deciding factors in my transition into Zazen, after a long time doing other, much more ‘esoteric’ things. After a while (it took me years because I’m a bit slow), you realise that chasing after things, be it experiences, visions and the rest, is chasing after something other that what is.
Not to slight it, as an old teacher of mine one told me, “sometimes you have to go away to come back”, I just found that after all that inner traveling I was still essentially the same, at which point just sitting became the obvious thing to do.
slightly off piste, but hopefully of use to someone.
Myo
-SattlahComment
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Thanks Jundo, I also recognize something powerful about Shikantaza. However, keeping an open mind, I've been listening to other traditions via audiobook lately. Currently, I'm listening to Thích Nhất Hạnh's "The Art of Living" and "The Miracle of Mindfulness." What's interesting is that he not only emphasizes how being present in the moment is enough, but he also describes different meditation techniques that involve something other than just simple awareness.Hi Douglas,
Guided meditations can be very powerful, and there is nothing wrong with practicing them sometimes if one wishes, but they are a different way from Shikantaza. There is something powerful about Shikantaza's way of Just Sitting, with trust in one's own heart that this is complete, the one place to be and one thing in need of doing right now, fulfilled ipso facto by the very act of being right here, untangled from thoughts, letting emotions be. (Hmmm, I guess I could make a kind of 'guided meditation' for Shikantaza in which, at the start I say the above ... maybe in one of those soothing ASMR voices ... you actually gave me a notion! )
But then, the sitter must sit on their own, finding the faith and trust in such Truth in their own bones, on their own. The training wheels come off, and the bike rider must ride on their own. We might call Shikantaza a "self-non-self guided meditation."
The difference between Shikantaza and most kinds of meditation, including guiding meditations, is that most seek to induce some tranquilized peace or other special state of experience or visualization as a goal (like Myojin says). In contrast, there is something incredibly wise about Shikantaza's teachings that the ultimate peace, wisdom and "special state" comes from dropping the seeking and need for special states.
Gassho, Jundo
stlah
PS - Onkai is right, the Metta Verses we sometimes recite here have aspects of being a guided meditation on LovingThe expansive sky does not obstruct the floating white clouds. Kindness.
I suppose what I am asking is not an either/or in regards to Shikantaza vs. guided meditation, but whether Soto sees any value in guided meditation or if it's seen as a hindrance, as opposed to Plum Village, Pure Land, and others. Much like Dogen, in Thích Nhất Hạnh's "The Art of Living," he writes that the very act of being present in the moment is enlightenment, so he seems to agree with Dogen and Soto in that regard.
There are other writers who lean towards or say they practice in the Soto tradition and have described guided meditation techniques. One well-known author is Jon Kabat-Zinn. In his book "Wherever You Go, There You Are," he describes several techniques that seem to assist in seeing your thoughts in a similar way to "The expansive sky does not obstruct the floating white clouds," with the mountain meditation where the mountain represents inner stability, stillness, and equanimity in the face of life's changes, while the clouds represent the impermanent nature of thoughts, feelings, and external circumstances.
Gassho,
SAT/LAH
-DougComment
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HI Douglas,
There are many folks offering many things, with spirituality like the toothpaste section of Walmart! So many kinds of paste just to brush one's teeth. I am sure that they are all good, suited to various dental needs. Most cater to the consumer minded, achievement oriented search for the perfect smile.
That said, there is something most unique and powerful about the "brushing-non-brushing" ways of Shikantaza, which recognizes the universe's bright smile that never needs whitener, even as we brush brush brush. It is subtle, and can elude folks who only think of brushing as a way to attain sparkle.
I hope that is clear now.
Please go choose the package that seems right for you.
Gassho, Jundo
stlahALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Oh, yes, there is that common vision at the heart (the vision which sweeps up both seer and seen). As I said, I have nothing against visualization meditation.
I caution against purely "instrumental," "something to attain" meditation.
Shikantaza is a "something to attain by giving up all need to attain something, even as one continues day by day to live as a gentle person" meditation.
It is rare among kinds of meditation which just seek some peace and payoff.
Gassho, J
stlahALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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As a priest in training, please take what I say with a grain of salt.
I am a mindfulness teacher in the work I do in the world and we use kinds of guided meditations, but they are actually guiding you through meditation not taking you to a serene place or imaging something that is not right here in the present moment. What a lot of people do not recognize is that by the time someone gets to the 6th week of an 8 week MBSR class, they are practicing something called choiceness awareness or open awareness which is very much akin to shikantaza. The whole purpose of the guiding up until that point is to have the person receive guidance in the meditation while they are doing the meditation, then eventually they are left on their own to just sit.
Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAHComment
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Lovely.
The one point there that I might add from Buddhism to mindfulness training is, for example, more radical penetration of such teachings as "non-self," and Emptiness, radical timlessness in each beat of time, the Huan-yan profound interidentity of all phenomena, all of time and space flowing in and out of all time and space, and non-stuff like that.
Do the mindfulness courses introduce such powerful teachings, Dai? Maybe through the backdoor somehow?
Gassho, J
stlahALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hi,
As a priest in training, I can only speak about my own experience, my words are my opinions, please take with a pinch of salt.
At the risk of sounding pedantic, the phrase 'bare awareness' surprises me. I am sure it's just choice of words. And words/language is often a problem for me. So, to me, the full awareness of Shikantaza seems not bare, but very complete.
Gasshō
Seiko
stlahLast edited by Seiko; 06-15-2024, 10:06 PM.Gandō Seiko
頑道清光
(Stubborn Way of Pure Light)
My street name is 'Al'.
Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.Comment
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Jundo,
Lovely.
The one point there that I might add from Buddhism to mindfulness training is, for example, more radical penetration of such teachings as "non-self," and Emptiness, radical timlessness in each beat of time, the Huan-yan profound interidentity of all phenomena, all of time and space flowing in and out of all time and space, and non-stuff like that.
Do the mindfulness courses introduce such powerful teachings, Dai? Maybe through the backdoor somehow?
Gassho, J
stlah
In mindfulness training, such profound concepts are not introduced directly. It turns out that people tend to stumble on these things and mindfulness teachers have to be equipped to handle these types of questions. I have encountered things like, " I have experienced that when I am noticing thoughts and feelings, that I begin to wonder, who is it that is noticing, who is it that is witnessing? I have seen people arrive at this place of realizing no-self and the overarching thing I have witnessed is people arriving at a great sense of peace when they get out of their own way and just be.
There is no "back door" as it were. But, Jon Kabat-Zinn may have hid it in some ways out of convention. But, it still comes through in the teachings, which is why I do not know why more traditional Buddhists get so confused about this when surveying mindfulness-based interventions. In Full Catastrophe Living, toward the end of the book, he talks about finding our own way through choiceness awareness or open awareness. In his later books like Coming to Our Senses and Wherever You Go, There You Are, it is very clear that he is coming from a Buddhist Perspective.
The attached document tells a lot of where JKZ was coming from in developing MBSR. Not that I agree with all of it. JKZ's first teacher was my third teacher Zen Master Seung Sahn. I did not even know Jon had studied with him until later. So, we are somewhat cut from the same cloth, but Jon is Jon and Daiman is Daiman. Each in his own Dharma expression.
I sincerely urge anyone with curiosity or perhaps confused about mindfulness-based interventions to read this article. It is with the time to read. It explains a lot about the crossover between "mindfulness" and Buddhism.
I think a quote from this article begins to lend some idea of where he was coming from. And, let me be honest, I had my own challenges with Jon, some pleasant and some not so pleasant, but that is usually how it goes with a teacher-student relationship. Not always an easy ride.
Gassho,
For this reason, and a personal affinity with the various streams of Chan and Zen, there was from the very beginning of MBSR an emphasis on non-duality and the non-instrumental dimension of practice, and thus, on non-doing, non-striving, not-knowing, non-attachment to outcomes, even to positive health outcomes, and on investigating beneath name and form and the world of appearances, as per the teachings of the Heart Sutra, which highlight the intrinsically empty nature of even the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, and liberation itself and yet are neither nihilistic nor positivistic, but a middle way (see Kabat-Zinn 2003, 2005f; Wallace and Hodel 2008). The emphasis in Chan on direct transmission outside the sutras or orthodox teachings (Luk 1974) also reinforced the sense that what is involved in mindfulness practice is ultimately not merely a matter of the intellect or cognition or scholarship, but of direct authentic full-spectrum first-person experience, nurtured, catalysed, reinforced and guided by the second-person perspective of a well-trained and highly experienced and empathic teacher. Therefore, MBSR was grounded in a non-authoritarian, non-hierarchical perspective that allowed for clarity, understanding, and wisdom, what we might call essential dharma, to emerge in the interchanges between instructor and participants, and within the meditation practice of the participant as guided by the instructor. And indeed, quite intentionally, we give a great deal of guidance in the meditation practices of MBSR in the early weeks of the programme, in class and on the guided meditation CDs.
DaimanLast edited by Guest; 06-16-2024, 02:59 AM.Comment
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