The subtle background thought process during Zazen that never goes away

[Douglas]

One of the things I've noticed during sitting Zazen is the always-present subtle background thoughts. Though I know I shouldn't separate these from others, but it seems different from when I inadvertently go on some thought tangent and only realize to bring my attention back after minutes of being practically unconscious. It's almost like a thought that is an acknowledging bare awareness.

It's a bit hard to describe what I mean. It seems like the thought process related to my intention to sit, or the thought "I am sitting." I can't really say I've ever had an experience where there is no thought at all. This subtle almost imperceptible thought stream seems always there.

Does anybody here know what I'm talking about?

-Sat today

[Jundo]

Perhaps you are over-thinking thoughts. Just pay thoughts "no nevermind," and then thoughts are no problem, and don't need a second thought. We don't need no thought, but rather, just to pay no thought to thoughts.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Rich]

I do get caught up in thinking a lot but dropping thinking is so refreshing i do that a lot also
sat/lah

[Douglas]

Perhaps you are over-thinking thoughts. Just pay thoughts "no nevermind," and then thoughts are no problem, and don't need a second thought. We don't need no thought, but rather, just to pay no thought to thoughts.

Gassho, J

stlah

You are of course probably right though I don't really see it as a "problem". It's just something I notice. That there is no such thing as "no thought". Even the intention to pay a thought 'no nevermind" is itself a thought.

[Bion]

If Jundo doesn’t mind, and please Douglas and everyone else, take what I say with much salt, I am nowhere near knowledgeable enough to teach anything, I will make a small observation.

Your post here makes me think of Keizan Zenji’s Yojinki, which we’re studying currently at Zazenkai. He addresses thought processes during Zazen as he references the koan about Yaoshan responding with “non-thinking” to the question “how do you think not thinking?”. Master Keizan references that when he instructs on what to do with the mind once the posture is settled. In one translation it says: “think of what is without thought. How can you think of it? Be before thinking. “ So even he speaks of various “thinkings” happening.. or various minds at work during zazen. Many teachers will say that zazen is not about chasing away thoughts, not about stopping the mind, not about quieting the thinking. Zazen includes all of these… The busy mind, the mind that catches itself being busy and that quiet in between the two, when something else entirely happens. But they alternate and occupy the same zazen. At least that’s what I read from much more knowledgeable people. I think we might get to this section of the Yojinki in a couple months at the Monthly Zazenkai so you can hear Jundo explain it himself properly!!!!

i am sorry for running so long, everyone. Again, take this with considerable amounts of salt!

gassho
sat and lah

[Jundo]

Many teachers will say that zazen is not about chasing away thoughts, not about stopping the mind, not about quieting the thinking. Zazen includes all of these… The busy mind, the mind that catches itself being busy and that quiet in between the two, when something else entirely happens.

I like to say that it is hearing the Silence that is resounding both in silence and in sound, the Light (notice the capital letters) that is shining both as light (small case) and darkness, the Peace found present in both peace and chaos, the Stillness that is both still and moving. In this way we know the Not Thinking that is present in both thinking and not thinking.

When one can know Not Thinking and thinking/not thinking in the same instant ... this is Non-Thinking. It is something like hearing the Silence in the silence/sound, or seeking the Light in the light/dark, all at once, which Silence-Non-Silence, Light-Non-Light. It is something like seeing the White of the White Board in both the letters on the board or as an empty board ... the White of the White Board is present in the words or in their absence. The White is ALWAYS fully present, manifesting as this board and all it's words just as much as when the board is erased ...
.

6bcebb7efbda0510e47a12d4c2d325b3.jpg

Something like that.

Gassho, J

stlah

PS - Oh my, the White Board ... you gave me our Friday Zazenkai theme.

[Kokuu]

Hi all

If I remember correctly, Chögyam Trungpa used to refer to this as 'subconscious gossip'.

All things come and go but those internal thought processes are, in my experience, particularly easy to grab onto as 'self' or part of self rather than viewing them as naturally occurring dependent-arising. Labelling something as self or not-self is another way our minds discriminate and categorise our experience.

We can just observe this. Nothing to fix, nowhere to go.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Dainin]

It is something like seeing the White of the White Board in both the letters on the board or as an empty board ... the White of the White Board is present in the words or in their absence. The White is ALWAYS fully present, manifesting as this board and all it's words just as much as when the board is erased

This is a very helpful simile/image, Jundo. Thank you.

Gassho,
Dainin

SatLah

[Tai Do]

Ho Douglas, I can relate to your experience; but, in my case, I visualize two different streams of though in my mind: on the one I can put effort and control it sometimes, on the other stream, I have absolutely no control and can only drop away by itself when I'm absorbed in zazen or some activity, regardless of effort.
Gassho,
Tai Do
Satlah

[Tom A.]

In Zazen thoughts are like clouds. It is helpful to me to remind myself: don't obey thoughts and feelings and don't struggle to avoid thoughts or feelings. I let them pass in zazen like clouds in the sky. I realized that struggling and obeying backfire and make things worse.


Gassho,

Tom

SatLah