i did it. this is what all the zen masters spoke of.

[nobo]

attained perfect and limitless awakening after five years of wrestling with myself. everything is effortless and free. all beings are awake eternally.

i have adhd and the max amount i can sit for at a time is 20 minutes. i did it, anyone can do it. but actually, there is nothing to do, nothing to attain. i never got what "sitting just to sit" means. now i see that when sitting, it is the only thing one can do.

i actually have not been active here for something like half a year now, but now i want to start participating here again. to whoever reads this i wish you the best of luck in your practice and life. a big thanks to jundo for embodying the perfect self-nature, and i beg forgiveness for my excessive words.

gassho, sat today, lent a hand (forgot how the etiquette here works please correct me if i have unwittingly broken any rules)

[Jundo]

Hi Nobo,

Give it a few days, see what happens, and write again. That is the best way to know what is what. A moment of such "effortless and free" can have many permutations, so do not clutch at holding on to such times.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[nobo]

thanks for your response! i actually have waited about two weeks since my perception initially changed, and it seems to me to be permanent. there is still pain and uncomfortable emotions, even panic attacks sometimes, but even in those difficult moments i feel free. but i understand that my understanding will continue maturing with time.

gassho sat n lent

[Shujin]

This can be such a wonderful feeling. I've sat with ADHD for a long time, both with and without medicine. Sometimes it's quite an experience. As a priest in training, I know next to nothing (perhaps less than nothing), but I'm reminded of Case 39 in the Book of Serenity:

A monk asked Zhaozhou, “I have just entered the monastery: please give me some guidance.”
Zhaozhou said, “Have you had breakfast yet?”
The monk said, “Yes I have eaten.”
Zhaozhou continues, “Then go wash your bowl.”

Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

[Chikyou]

I have felt this joy, time and time again, as over the months practice unfolds.

It is a journey; no destination, but I can't help but be curious about what's around the next bend.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Jundo]

Here is my way to judge this experiences ...

In traditional times, a teacher could recognize a student ... not by one insightful comment or gesture ... but by interacting with them over months and years. What to look for, to know if this practice has truly changed someone's life, is how they behave day to day. If someone truly has had a realization ... and is making it real in life ... then it will show in their word, actions, interactions with others, over the long term. So, when a teacher of the past recognized a student's enlightened behavior, it was based on all their behavior, with some formal recognition just a celebration of that. We sometimes read an old Koan, and it sounds like something that happened in a moment, but usually the people in the Koan knew each other intimately so could judge.

My joke is that, if someone wants to know if they are enlightened ... ask their husband or wife who must live with them each day.

In the case of our Sangha, it is hard for me to judge at a distance based on what someone claims, for (to be honest) there are many times when somebody might claim some lasting and profound awakening, but it turns out to be more of a passing psychological state. For that reason, my rule of thumb is this:

If, after days and weeks, it is obvious that this insight has had some deep, positive impact on one's life, then it is to be celebrated. If not, or if there are negative results, then it was something else (e.g., a manic episode or the like). Time will tell. If it is something to be cherished, then it will be so in the coming days, weeks and years. You will know by the lasting and continued effects in your life.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Hōzan]

…if someone wants to know if they are enlightened... ask their husband or wife who must live with them each day.

….I’m so far off….

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Guest]

Here is my way to judge this experiences ...

In traditional times, a teacher could recognize a student ... not by one insightful comment or gesture ... but by interacting with them over months and years. What to look for, to know if this practice has truly changed someone's life, is how they behave day to day. If someone truly has had a realization ... and is making it real in life ... then it will show in their word, actions, interactions with others, over the long term. So, when a teacher of the past recognized a student's enlightened behavior, it was based on all their behavior, with some formal recognition just a celebration of that. We sometimes read an old Koan, and it sounds like something that happened in a moment, but usually the people in the Koan knew each other intimately so could judge.

My joke is that, if someone wants to know if they are enlightened ... ask their husband or wife who must live with them each day.

In the case of our Sangha, it is hard for me to judge at a distance based on what someone claims, for (to be honest) there are many times when somebody might claim some lasting and profound awakening, but it turns out to be more of a passing psychological state. For that reason, my rule of thumb is this:

If, after days and weeks, it is obvious that this insight has had some deep, positive impact on one's life, then it is to be celebrated. If not, or if there are negative results, then it was something else (e.g., a manic episode or the like). Time will tell. If it is something to be cherished, then it will be so in the coming days, weeks and years. You will know by the lasting and continued effects in your life.

Gassho, J

stlah

In the end, what you say here Jundo is very, very true. In the Soto tradition, we do not have a list of koans that one needs to complete to test their understanding (even then, this proves nothing...as Joko Beck once said, "I have known some people that have solved hundreds of koans, but they were not particularly nice people."). So, it boils down to how we carry ourselves. A good teacher can pick up on this pretty easily. A good teacher is like a good farmer who knows when the cultivation is complete and the fruit and vegetables are ready for harvest. Because, eventually these fruits and vegetables will feed the world, So they must not be picked to early or too late.

Gassho,
Daiman
St/LAH

[Tom M]

A good teacher can pick up on this pretty easily. A good teacher is like a good farmer who knows when the cultivation is complete and the fruit and vegetables are ready for harvest. Because, eventually these fruits and vegetables will feed the world, So they must not be picked to early or too late.

Gassho,
Daiman
St/LAH

And when to spread manure on them

Gassho,
Tom
Sat today

[Jundo]

One thing expressed, Nobo, is perhaps a good sign ...

... there is still pain and uncomfortable emotions, even panic attacks sometimes, but even in those difficult moments i feel free. but i understand that my understanding will continue maturing with time.

It is good that this is seemingly a feeling of freedom which shines through the difficult times and hard emotions of life, present even in and with the experience of the panic attack you cannot control, rather than a claim that you are now free of all difficulties and emotions and fears. That is a healthy sign. Folks sometimes assume that liberation is to be completely free of all human unpleasantry, problems, pain and difficult emotional states like fear and sadness that may come and go. If you find some light and stillness that is present even with the mind's theatre show, that is a powerful finding.

Please let us know if that continues, and how it develops.

Gassho, J
stlah

[michaelw]

…if someone wants to know if they are enlightened... ask their husband or wife who must live with them each day.

Reminds me of the old saying 'the definition of a martyr is some who has to live with a saint'.

Gassho
MichaelW

satlah

[Jundo]

…if someone wants to know if they are enlightened... ask their husband or wife who must live with them each day.

Reminds me of the old saying 'the definition of a martyr is some who has to live with a saint'.

Gassho
MichaelW

satlah

[Rich]

Waking up requires a subtle effort. May all beings celebrate this moment

sat/lah

[Onki]

Please take what I say with a grain of salt as I am a Priest-in-Training and do not have the wisdom or skills to be teaching!

I would like to share my own experience as someone with ADHD. Please know that I am not comparing my experience with your experience; I am only sharing my own personal experience.

I, too, have ADHD. When I first began sitting (pre-medication), it was very difficult to sit for 5 minutes. 5 minutes, to me, felt like hours! Now, with the help of medication and a consistent Practice, I am able to sit longer than 5 minutes (I am referring specifically to my ADHD, not including other ailments that can make sitting a challenge).

The first time I was able to sit longer than 5 minutes, longer than 10 minutes, comfortably around 30 minutes, I was astounded. Never did I think it possible to sit for that long!

There are times where I experience these sudden “bursts of happiness/joy/equanimity.” They are quick and short, lasting anywhere from 10 seconds to 1 minute. They feel intense. My body tingles. I feel as if I have merged with the Universe… It is kind of hard to explain. It is a profound feeling. Yet, it is simply that; a feeling, an experience. I do not cling to this experience, wishing and wanting it to stay forever. Nor do I push it away and not feel it. I let it be. I let it be, I smile at it, and carry on. “Hello, little burst. Nice to see you. Thanks for visiting.” No clinging, no ignoring. Middle Way.

As well, I don’t seek out this experience either. I still suffer with depression, fibromyalgia, etc. I still have my own set of problems in life. As Jundo said, “Folks sometimes assume that liberation is to be completely free of all human unpleasantry, problems, pain and difficult emotional states like fear and sadness that may come and go.”

Let me be clear, I am not enlightened nor do I think or believe I am. I am simply a guy training to be a Priest, working on applying Practice with Life/Reality, and stumbling down this path in the hope of helping others.

Gasshō,

On

Sat today/LAH

[Jundo]

Lovely post, Onki.

attained perfect and limitless awakening after five years of wrestling with myself. everything is effortless and free. all beings are awake eternally.

Hi Nobo,

How have the past weeks been since your first post, above? It might tell us something about your experience.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Ryokudo]

attained perfect and limitless awakening after five years of wrestling with myself. everything is effortless and free. all beings are awake eternally.

i have adhd and the max amount i can sit for at a time is 20 minutes. i did it, anyone can do it. but actually, there is nothing to do, nothing to attain. i never got what "sitting just to sit" means. now i see that when sitting, it is the only thing one can do.

i actually have not been active here for something like half a year now, but now i want to start participating here again. to whoever reads this i wish you the best of luck in your practice and life. a big thanks to jundo for embodying the perfect self-nature, and i beg forgiveness for my excessive words.

gassho, sat today, lent a hand (forgot how the etiquette here works please correct me if i have unwittingly broken any rules)

Hi Nobo,

I think it's a beautiful moment you are sharing with us and when they occur, when you feel more at-one-ness, it helps for all those other times where the clouds just don't shift no matter how hard we "not-think" during zazen. Maybe the practice is indeed sitting better with you and this is a great filip to encourage you further.

Overall I feel that the 2 are the same they are just zazen as it is. "Clear-minded" zazen and "Storm-minded zazen are the same thing, sometimes rain sometimes shine. Always the weather patterns, always zazen.

Still anything that helps us continue too "hit the cushion" is pretty useful.

Gassho,

Ryo

SAT/LAH