Sitting through the storm

[Jacob Janicek]

I've noticed if I'm just sitting and not actively trying to focus on the breath or some such object as is practiced in mindfulness exercises and the like, and I just allow whatever thoughts or feelings to be what they are, that they can sometimes be rather intense. Like vivid daydreams or a storm of emotions that create a sort of tension and give the urge to fidget or glance around the room, does it at that point become an objective to remain still as a kind of discipline?

-Jacob J.
Sat and LAH

[Jishin]

I've noticed if I'm just sitting and not actively trying to focus on the breath or some such object as is practiced in mindfulness exercises and the like, and I just allow whatever thoughts or feelings to be what they are, that they can sometimes be rather intense. Like vivid daydreams or a storm of emotions that create a sort of tension and give the urge to fidget or glance around the room, does it at that point become an objective to remain still as a kind of discipline?

-Jacob J.
Sat and LAH

Your post makes made me think of:

https://youtu.be/iv8GW1GaoIc?feature=shared

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Huichan]

Be kind to yourself, congratulate yourself for noticing your thoughts and feelings. I feel it's called 'practice' because you're developing a skill, even though it is 'just sitting' at the time of sitting. Once you recognise that you are getting lost in something, gently release it and relax back into the sitting. If it keeps coming back just repeat the process. I don't feel it matters how many times we come back to 'just this' but more remembering to do so.


Huichan
stlah

[Jundo]

I've noticed if I'm just sitting and not actively trying to focus on the breath or some such object as is practiced in mindfulness exercises and the like, and I just allow whatever thoughts or feelings to be what they are, that they can sometimes be rather intense. Like vivid daydreams or a storm of emotions that create a sort of tension and give the urge to fidget or glance around the room, does it at that point become an objective to remain still as a kind of discipline?

-Jacob J.
Sat and LAH

I like Huichan's "gently release it and relax back into the sitting."

Sometimes we must truly "self-discipline" to keep sitting or to bear up. I think it human that such times happen.

But I would recommend as better the practice of "letting go, letting be" the intense thoughts and feelings, the storms and disturbances both within and without. Don't fight them, as much as let them flow on by like the breeze. Don't fight, but rather, radically yield, allow, "pay no nevermind" to.

My daughter is a blackbelt in Karate, and my wife is a 5th Dan in Aikido. Karate attacks, punches, kicks. Aikido, ideally, does not resist, but instead allows the attacker to flow on by, the master relaxed, flexible and flowing too. Something like that. I think that Shikantaza is more Aikido than Karate.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Guest]

It's worth bearing in mind that when you are observing closely, the 'storm' is the activity of the mind.

It's a peculiar thing, you start to see why we are so enmeshed in it, awareness itself is also the activity of the mind. So in one sense you are sitting through the storm, but equally in another you are the storm! That's why it's so hard to see it, it's like trying to hear somebody speak while shouting over them, but you're not even aware that you are shouting, all you hear is noise.

I'm told that sometimes the storm quietens down, and very occasionally I've gotten a glimpse of another side to it, but like you my usual experience is a tornado of thoughts, feelings, perceptions, so chaotic as to drown out anything else, or else lethargy and sleepiness.

My feeling is that, sitting with this chaos, being with it rather than pushing it away, yet not being lost in it or dragged away on this or that gust of wind, is the point of zazen.

Of course I may be way of mark, so I'm wiling to be corrected.

Ran long

Gassho
Myojin

-Sattday

[mdonnoe]

I used to sometimes say that it would take "two or three days into a sesshin for the music I listened to over the past month to stop playing in my head." For me, sometimes it's not enough to sit one period of zazen, or to even sit just once a day - I need the medicine of zazen in my breath, in my body, in my heart. Put another way - it can take a little time in zazen for your "monkey mind" to finally get bored with itself, and stop grasping at things and playing narratives in your heart.

If possible, I suggest sitting more than just a short period at a time, and joining weekly / monthly zazenkai when you're able to do so. Once you have an experience of the "dropping off of body and mind," you'll find it easier to get back to that place in zazen.

And all that being said, take all of this advice with a grain of salt - I'm merely a student myself. Or, as LeVar Burton used to say in Reading Rainbow, "Don't just take MY word for it!" (Check it out with others, talk to the ordained sangha, etc.)

Gassho,

Michael
Sat/Lah

[Kokuu]

Hi Jacob

Zazen can really feel like that and there is a lot of good advice here on dropping resistance to what is going on. Even the urge to move and flee the discomfort can be included as part of the storm.

However, I would add that there are times when I find Zazen too intense to sit with, in my case due to physical pain. Some Treeleaf members with neurodiverse conditions such as autism also have reported than sometimes just sitting with all that is can be too much, even with dropping resistance to feeling discomfort.

Recently, Jundo wrote an excellent piece on Fixceptance during Zazen (click here) in which we learn to sit with mild to moderate discomfort, but sometimes we need to move to avoid causing ourselves pain. Similarly, I would say that it is not the purpose of Zazen to learn to sit with strong emotional pain. If sitting is too intense (and we each have our limits) it is okay to get off the cushion, or to sit for shorter periods of time. This is not to give ourself an excuse not to sit, but rather to not view sitting as a feat of endurance. Hopefully, by sitting with an open mind and heart, a lot of resistance can be dropped that enables us to sit with whatever is happening. But it is also for each of us to know when we reach our limit of tolerance and to work with that.

This said, Jundo is the teacher here, and can advise on whether that is good advice. I tend to work a lot with people with physical illness and/or strong emotions relating to trauma so my approach to practice may differ in this regard.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

This said, Jundo is the teacher here, and can advise on whether that is good advice.

Rev. Kokuu is a teacher here too, and is just being modest.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Kaitan]

stlah, Kaitan

[Kokuu]

Rev. Kokuu is a teacher here too, and is just being modest.

This is true, but it is still your house!

[Chikyou]

A while back Jundo gave a talk about seeing thoughts and emotions as incense filling the room - sometimes prominent and choking, sometimes fading into the background, just a part of the space. That analogy really spoke to me and often crosses my mind when sitting - and I often find, that all the "stuff" in my head and in life is just like that, and I feel as though I'm sitting in the eye of the storm, quiet calm in the center, and all the "stuff" just hanging out, there, surrounding me, but not terribly important.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Jundo]

A while back Jundo gave a talk about seeing thoughts and emotions as incense filling the room ...

Ah, Chikyou, glad that incense suited you.

Thoughts-without-Thoughts: Incense Smoke in the Room

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?22470-Thoughts-without-Thoughts-Incense-Smoke-in-the-Room

And I must thank Bion, who makes audio versions of these ramblings ...

https://soundcloud.com/treeleaf-zendo/thoughts-without-thoughts-incense-smoke-in-the-room-jundo-cohen

Gassho, J

stlah

[DGF]

Everything is said allready! So only we can do is practice and sit
I felt a long time really restless body and mind was moving. Sometimes i sat 5 min and some times 40.
Just go with your flow. Dont be hard be kind

Gassho
Diana
Satlah

[Alyosha]

“The expansive sky does not obstruct the floating white clouds.”

I read that somewhere and, when the occasion calls for it, it comes to my aid in zazen. I find it hard to articulate how I've interpreted it, but it's probably quite shallow, thinking of the clouds as the various mental formations, moving across the emptiness of the sky, and knowing that both are indeed "the sky" and there's nothing for me to do but be there with it.

Even if they're storm clouds, they still pass. Even if there's static in the air, I just remain dispassionate. No objective when sitting, no concerns, just sitting.

Gassho
Alyosha
stlaw

[Shujin]

“The expansive sky does not obstruct the floating white clouds.”

***Edit - didn't notice that Douglas had mentioned it above as well. D'oh!

Yes, sir, this has been attributed to Shitou. There's a nice, short article about it here.

Gassho,
Shujin

st/lah