Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Jundo]

I'm coming more from a mixture of the theravada and TNH mindfulness background, almost always with my eyes closed. Why does "eyes partially opened ... Unfocused" sound so easy?



Feels like I'm trying to keep my eyes forced into an unnatural state, which is a distraction and leads to some eye strain after sitting and I find that I'm having to consciously blink, probably because I'm so focused on my eyes.

I searched and didn't see anything. Thoughts? Advice? Guidance?

Ghasso!

Sat/LaH

Oh, I am not sure where you got the "unfocused" part. Our way is normal vision, with the eyes partly open, with equanimity about what is seen, neither running towards the world nor running away. Seeing, yet not being disturbed by nor tangled in what is seen, no need to push away the world, yet the mind not grabbing on or caught. We can be looking into the room, or facing the wall as a kind of mild sense reduction.

Generally, we do not fixate on any one part or spot on the wall or what we are seeing, but let the eyes just see, relaxed, without thinking about what we are seeing. Like driving. This is also a good practice for when we return to daily life and can better meet all the things in our world with the same wisdom. In contrast, the closed eye practice is much more world removed,

I just sit, looking out through my half open eyes, no differently than if I were sitting at my kitchen table looking at the room or driving a car looking at the road. If looking at the wall, I am just looking as if looking at any scenery. Normal vision, but I just am not particularly thinking about, pondering or concentrating on what I am seeing. I describe it as "staring at everything and nothing in particular". My eyes take in the room or the floor or wall quiet naturally, but I do not latch onto anything mentally to think about what I am seeing. For example, my eyes may rest on a chair or on some spots on the wall, but I just do not get lost in thoughts such as "ugly chair, need to go chair shopping" or "those dots look just like a giraffe"

My focus just wanders from point to point to point quite naturally, resting where they rest, on this or that, then moving on when they move on.

I like to say that here is what the room looks like before Zazen ...

image.png

... and here during Zazen ...

image.png

We are just not thinking about or judging the chair, the wall, the window etc. etc.

Here is a thread on that:

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/teacher-talks-tips/teacher-talks-tips-aa/vital-points-of-shikantaza-zazen/11418-drivin-dogen-understanding-open-spacious-awareness

Gassho, J
stlah

[Bion]

I'm coming more from a mixture of the theravada and TNH mindfulness background, almost always with my eyes closed. Why does "eyes partially opened ... Unfocused" sound so easy?



Feels like I'm trying to keep my eyes forced into an unnatural state, which is a distraction and leads to some eye strain after sitting and I find that I'm having to consciously blink, probably because I'm so focused on my eyes.

I searched and didn't see anything. Thoughts? Advice? Guidance?

Ghasso!

Sat/LaH

It's interesting how our mind works, right? If you think of sitting down for meditation, there's a whole idea there about what that means, how it feels, what's supposed to happen, what it should look like. So, when you think of meditating, I am sure you're making some associations that surface when you sit down, and it feels challenging to keep your eyes open or keep your hands in a different way than you used to, or switch the position of your legs.

Think of simply sitting somewhere, staring at nothing. As a matter of fact, try it whenever you read this. Stop moving for a few seconds, wherever you are; stop doing anything, don't look at anything in particular; just be there for a little bit, still, with eyes open and the gaze lowered slightly. Let me know if you find it just as challenging, please!

gassho
sat lah

[Seiko]

Why does "eyes partially opened ... Unfocused" sound so easy

Hi Chris,
Hmm. Forget "unfocussed".

Please, in every way relax. Sit straight but not tense, eyes open but not searching, breathe normally. Like a soldier standing to attention, but also relaxed.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

[TMD16]

Thank you very much, Jundo, Bion and Seiko for your responses. All very helpful! I guess I heard the unfocused somewhere else.

Every day is a day to learn!

Gassho, Chris

Sat / lah

[Bion]

Thank you very much, Jundo, Bion and Seiko for your responses. All very helpful! I guess I heard the unfocused somewhere else.

Every day is a day to learn!

Gassho, Chris

Sat / lah

Out-of-focus vision happens naturally when we relax and don't stare at what's in front of us. So, it's not necessarily wrong to speak of it, but it's a consequence, not the goal.

gassho
sat lah

[Teiho]

So I sit zazen in a fully lit room now with eyes open. Erect posture. But over a 30 min sit, my eyes still get heavy and I have to keep trying to open them and adjust posture slightly to stay aware. So it seems like my zazen is truly good for nothing. However, I notice that when I’m done, I feel calm, tranquil, and content with everything. I am light and happy and this lasts most of the day. So then apparently my good for nothing zazen is still good for something?

[Jundo]

HI Randy,

Shikantaza Zazen is a strange bird. It is good on days when your may feel calm, tranquil, and content, and good on days when you do not feel calm, tranquil, and content at all. The real "calm, tranquil, and content" does not always need to feel "calm, tranquil, and content," but rather is calm, tranquil, and content about not always feeling calm, tranquil, and content. Needing to feel calm, tranquil, and content in order to be calm, tranquil, and content is not real calm, tranquil, and content. It is a Koan for you.

Dim the lights a little, into soft lighting rather than fully lit. If your eyes are getting heavy, then you are just tired. Maybe sit 20 minutes and, if you are not feeling too tired, then add another 5 or 10. But truly, as I spoke about this week, Zazen is not about length of time at all.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/teacher-talks-tips/teacher-talks-tips-aa/573369-don-t-sit-for-any-length-of-time-don-t-sit-to-be-happy-don-t-sit-for-yourself#post573369

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Teiho]

Thank you ???? Jundo!

[Teiho]

Questions marks were not intended lol

[Seiko]

So I sit zazen in a fully lit room now with eyes open. Erect posture. But over a 30 min sit, my eyes still get heavy and I have to keep trying to open them and adjust posture slightly to stay aware. So it seems like my zazen is truly good for nothing. However, I notice that when I’m done, I feel calm, tranquil, and content with everything. I am light and happy and this lasts most of the day. So then apparently my good for nothing zazen is still good for something?

Hi Randy,
OK. You noticed your eyes closing. Good. You noticed.

You return to open awareness. Great. Keep doing that.

The calmness and other feelings may be present or may not. Either is fine.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

[fluffy_cloud]

I like shikantaza. Been doing it for a while.

Every creature on Earth seems to be engaged in concentration or some variant or ramification thereof. But shikantaza is different.

What a mouthful. Shikantaza. I'd call it "growing" but I'd have to be explaining myself all the time.