Zen Practice with Physical Illness or Disability

[Tairin]

Metta to you Kim.


Tairin
Sat today

[Eishuu]

Sorry to hear this, Kim. I'm not sure that I have any suggestions about lying down zazen. I do all of my zazen lying down at the moment. I'd say find a position that is comfortable - it may take a bit of getting used to. In terms of pain, I just let it be there. I think there are various Buddhist resources about meditating with pain but I find zazen helps - it helps me let go of that second layer of suffering, all the aversion and thoughts around pain.

I also find that sometimes my energy gets flat and I struggle with concentration whilst lying down so sometimes I add in some breath meditation too.

Sending you lots of metta.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Meitou]

Sitting for you Kim
Metta and Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday lah

[Jishin]

Zen Practice with Physical Illness or Disability

I think it is wonderful that we all try to be supportive of members with physical disabilities. That said, we do not do a good job of people with psychiatric difficulties.

Of the top of my head, here are some for consideration:

Perceptual distortions:

Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective Bipolar Type, Schizoaffective Depressive Type

Mood Disorders:

Bipolar type I with and without psychotic features, Bipolar type II, Major depression with and without psychotic features, Persistent Depressive Disorder

Anxiety Disorders:

Generalized Anxiety, Social Anxiety, Panic Disorder with and without agoraphobia, PTSD, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Developmental disorders:

ADHD, Intellectual Development Disability, Autism Spectrum Disorder

Personality disorders including Borderline, Obsessive and Narcissistic Personality Disorders

Substance Use Disorders

Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders and many others not mentioned that I can not remember right now.

It's flat out discrimination when we tend to be supportive of all physical disabilities, depressive and most anxiety disabilities, but do not do such a good job with the others.

My 2 cents.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jinyo]

Hello Jishin,

when you say 'we' do you mean society in general or here at Tree Leaf?

I think society in general is not very supportive of anything that constitutes 'other' or 'difference' right across the board.
We have quite a culture of blame - even towards physical illnesses and disabilities. There is little help (at least here in the UK) for depressive illnesses
and anxiety which is expected to miraculously get better with six sessions of CBT and perhaps a pharmaceutical pill. As for Mindfullness it is the new Utopia
and sadly somewhat removed from much of what is taught here.

Do you have any suggestions as to how we might do better here or out in the wider world?

It is a subject close to my heart,

Gassho

Jinyo

ST

[Kokuu]

It's flat out discrimination when we tend to be supportive of all physical disabilities, depressive and most anxiety disabilities, but do not do such a good job with the others.

Hi Jishin

This has been raised among Jundo and the unsui and, while we want to be completely open and supportive to people with mental health conditions and those who are neuro atypical, it was felt that we lack the expertise to offer any suggestions around this. It was discussed in detail when these guidelines were being put together.

The best we could do is state words to that effect and give information so that an individual could discuss their practice with those involved in their ongoing support and treatment.

Basically, we do not ignore this group and wish to make them very welcome here. However, we are very aware of the limitations of our knowledge and prefer to err on the side of not interfering with conditions we know little about. If you wanted to talk about this further with Jundo or any of us, I am sure we would be open to it.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jishin]

Hello Jishin,

when you say 'we' do you mean society in general or here at Tree Leaf?

I think society in general is not very supportive of anything that constitutes 'other' or 'difference' right across the board.
We have quite a culture of blame - even towards physical illnesses and disabilities. There is little help (at least here in the UK) for depressive illnesses
and anxiety which is expected to miraculously get better with six sessions of CBT and perhaps a pharmaceutical pill. As for Mindfullness it is the new Utopia
and sadly somewhat removed from much of what is taught here.

Do you have any suggestions as to how we might do better here or out in the wider world?

It is a subject close to my heart,

Gassho

Jinyo

ST

Hi Jinyo,

This is a very complex subject. The best I can do is to point it out.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jishin]

Hi Jishin

This has been raised among Jundo and the unsui and, while we want to be completely open and supportive to people with mental health conditions and those who are neuro atypical, it was felt that we lack the expertise to offer any suggestions around this. It was discussed in detail when these guidelines were being put together.

The best we could do is state words to that effect and give information so that an individual could discuss their practice with those involved in their ongoing support and treatment.

Basically, we do not ignore this group and wish to make them very welcome here. However, we are very aware of the limitations of our knowledge and prefer to err on the side of not interfering with conditions we know little about. If you wanted to talk about this further with Jundo or any of us, I am sure we would be open to it.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Hi Kokku,

Again, a very complex subject with lots of angles. It does good to call attention to the issue.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Kokuu]

Hi Jishin

I will raise the subject again with Jundo and the other unsui. It may be we can make a post that makes it clear that people with mental health and neurological issues are very welcome at Treeleaf without offering specific advice.

Recent posts make it clear that we already have members of this description who hopefully feel supported and considered here.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Jundo]

Hi Jishin

I will raise the subject again with Jundo and the other unsui. It may be we can make a post that makes it clear that people with mental health and neurological issues are very welcome at Treeleaf without offering specific advice.

Recent posts make it clear that we already have members of this description who hopefully feel supported and considered here.

Gassho
Kokuu

My advice for all these conditions, including for other conditions involving physical illness or disability, has to be the same:

Please seek treatment and counseling by a medical or mental health professional in your community with expertise in treating your condition. If the doctor recommends or approves of your participating here, and sitting Zazen, then you are more than welcome to do so. If the doctor recommends against it, then we request the person not to do so.

That is all we can do, given that the patient and doctor are the ones who truly understand the person's condition.

If a person is approved and able to sit with us, then it is fine that he/she adjust the way of sitting and participation according to his/her needs. (For example, we actually had a person participate who had a condition involving sudden movements and 'Tourettes' like sudden vocalizations. Our Sangha was the first that the person felt comfortable in sitting with "live" because they could simply turn off the microphone and sit a bit away from the camera. Another person needs to get up from time to time and walk a bit, again, no problem for our group). To the degree we can, each person is accepted for who they/we are. I feel this is one of the wonderful qualities that Treeleaf has, it is like a refuge, a safe place to come and put down the labels and categories, and just be who you need to be as much as we can figure out a way.

I wish that we could do more to alleviate peoples' illness, but that is all that is possible for us.

If approved by their medical or mental health professional, people with mental health problems, including depression, anxiety, alcohol recovery and so forth, and neurological conditions, are welcome at Treeleaf.

In such case, we are happy to advise on how to practice and offer information about meditation and Zen practice for you to give to your medical professionals. However, while we can offer some support with normal day-to-day issues just as we do with all of our membership here, we do not have any specific training in dealing with psychological and neurological conditions and do not wish to interfere with any support or treatment you are receiving elsewhere.

Whereas mindfulness and other forms of meditation have in some cases been demonstrated to help mild to moderate depression and anxiety amongst other conditions, this is not universally so. It is for you to discuss with your medical professionals whether they think this is suitable for you.

I always say this on Zazen often going hand-in-hand with other treatment:

Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

My feeling is that receiving outside treatment, medication AND "just sitting" can all work together.

Zazen should be easy and harmless for most people, but everyone is different. Some people may have conditions which make them particularly sensitive. Follow the expert's guidance and advice and do not engage in Zazen if they do not recommend your doing so.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Jinyo]

My advice for all these conditions, including for other conditions involving physical illness or disability, has to be the same:

Please seek treatment and counseling by a medical or mental health professional in your community with expertise in treating your condition. If the doctor recommends or approves of your participating here, and sitting Zazen, then you are more than welcome to do so. If the doctor recommends against it, then we request the person not to do so.

That is all we can do, given that the patient and doctor are the ones who truly understand the person's condition.

If a person is approved and able to sit with us, then it is fine that he/she adjust the way of sitting and participation according to his/her needs. (For example, we actually had a person participate who had a condition involving sudden movements and 'Tourettes' like sudden vocalizations. Our Sangha was the first that the person felt comfortable in sitting with "live" because they could simply turn off the microphone and sit a bit away from the camera. Another person needs to get up from time to time and walk a bit, again, no problem for our group). To the degree we can, each person is accepted for who they/we are. I feel this is one of the wonderful qualities that Treeleaf has, it is like a refuge, a safe place to come and put down the labels and categories, and just be who you need to be as much as we can figure out a way.

I wish that we could do more to alleviate peoples' illness, but that is all that is possible for us.

If approved by their medical or mental health professional, people with mental health problems, including depression, anxiety, alcohol recovery and so forth, and neurological conditions, are welcome at Treeleaf.

In such case, we are happy to advise on how to practice and offer information about meditation and Zen practice for you to give to your medical professionals. However, while we can offer some support with normal day-to-day issues just as we do with all of our membership here, we do not have any specific training in dealing with psychological and neurological conditions and do not wish to interfere with any support or treatment you are receiving elsewhere.

Whereas mindfulness and other forms of meditation have in some cases been demonstrated to help mild to moderate depression and anxiety amongst other conditions, this is not universally so. It is for you to discuss with your medical professionals whether they think this is suitable for you.

I always say this on Zazen often going hand-in-hand with other treatment:



Zazen should be easy and harmless for most people, but everyone is different. Some people may have conditions which make them particularly sensitive. Follow the expert's guidance and advice and do not engage in Zazen if they do not recommend your doing so.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

A wise statement Jundo - and thank you Kokuu - totally agree.

Things get very messy when any of us go beyond our abilities and I can only think that Treeleaf is very inclusive and welcoming to all.

Gassho

Jinyo

ST

[Jishin]

Hi,

I think Treeleaf is very inclusive but we as a group take liberties and doll out advice for people with certain conditions but not others. I think Jundo’s policy and restatement of it here is nice.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Kokuu]

I think Treeleaf is very inclusive but we as a group take liberties and doll out advice for people with certain conditions but not others.

The fact is that advice for someone who can't bow or sit cross-legged due to physical disability is pretty functional and easy. You can't do this - try this.

Psychological and neurological conditions are less easy to do that with.

Sorry if that feels exclusive. It is not the intention. We do our very best to support everyone here.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Jishin]

The fact is that advice for someone who can't bow or sit cross-legged due to physical disability is pretty functional and easy. You can't do this - try this.

Psychological and neurological conditions are less easy to do that with.

Sorry if that feels exclusive. It is not the intention. We do our very best to support everyone here.

Gassho
Kokuu

I know. It's hard to make a distinction at times though.

Gasho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

I know. It's hard to make a distinction at times though.

Gasho, Jishin, ST, LAH

Thank you, Jishin, for your input on this. I also thank a couple of our other mental health professionals who have PM'd me with some input.

Basically, our policy has to be that we keep the doors open here, and show people how to sit Shikantaza. However, if anyone has a condition ... physical and mental ... follow their doctor's advice first and foremost. If the doctor says that a practice is okay, then try it. If the doctor says that a practice is not okay, then don't do it.

It is a bit like having a public pool and people coming to swim, some of them having medical conditions. We don't close the pool, but ask everyone to be cautious. We can't know exactly everyone's health state hidden inside, and we are not medical professionals, so ask them to check with their doctor before swimming (and to know themselves, and only do what they feel is beneficial). Shikantaza is a gentle way of meditation (unlike some very intense forms that people sometimes engage in) which should not be harmful in any way to the vast majority of people, but their are always people with particular conditions that make them sensitive. Follow your doctor's advice.

People here offer advice to be helpful, just like any neighbor or someone you meet in the check-out line at the grocery. I offer general advice suitable for most people, but I cannot know everyone's unique syndrome and situation. Thus, listen to your doctor first before you listen to me or anyone around here. After that, you can start to listen to me.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH