Oryoki documentation update

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  • Shinshi
    Treeleaf Unsui
    • Jul 2010
    • 3559

    Oryoki documentation update

    As you all probably know we have lost one of Jundo's Oryoki training videos and he has suggested we use the one from the Austin Zen Center in its place. I have talked to Jundo, and Shugen about starting to do some Oryoki session in the new year so I have been watching a lot of videos doing a fair amount of reading.

    I asked Jundo what to do when the Austin Zen Center and our documentation do things differently. I thought he would say, use our documentation but instead he told me to use the Japanese videos as authoritative sources.

    So I have been comparing and contrasting, and sharing with Shugen and Jundo. Usually our procedures agree with the Japanese videos but not always. Jundo suggested I work on updating our documentation to bring it in line with the Japanese training videos and I am working on it. I am sharing what I find with Shugen and Jundo, and I'll let everyone know where we net out.

    Many of the things are small, like which way to flip the drying cloth - or should it be flipped at all (answer is no flip). But there are some bigger ones like the fact that the procedures are a little different between lunch and dinner - lunch has tea and cleaning water, breakfast only cleaning water. Another is that when cleaning the water is sipped from the small bowl not the middle one.

    I just wanted to let you all know that this was in the works. And, also, I have been practicing with the newer procedures so Jakuden and I might do things a bit differently during Rohatsu.

    If you have any questions let me know. Deep bows to the hard work that went into creating our documentation.

    Gassho,

    Shinshi
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 39460

    #2
    But there are some bigger ones like the fact that the procedures are a little different between lunch and dinner - lunch has tea and cleaning water, breakfast only cleaning water.
    Rather than teach all three meals (although dinner is technically "medicine," not a "meal" for Vinaya reasons), we decided to focus on one. So, maybe pick one, and just do that one while alerting folks of small differences for the other meals.

    Another is that when cleaning the water is sipped from the small bowl not the middle one.
    Yes, what happens is that, when tea is served for lunch, it is drunk from the middle bowl. However, after, when hot water for cleaning comes, the remaining hot water is drunk from the small bowl as the last bowl cleaned. However (correct me if I am wrong), that is really only a sip from the small bowl after the majority of the water is returned to the server, who comes around with a bucket (the water being poured in slowly with both hands, gently, so as not to splash). It will be difficult for us to recreate the server and the bucket for our home practice, so we may wish just to have the eater drink the entirety.

    Some water may be sipped from the middle bowl if, when transferring from the middle to small bowl, there is too much water in the middle bowl. NEVER put one's lips directly on the large Buddha Bowl, however.
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-24-2021, 01:10 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Jakuden
      Member
      • Jun 2015
      • 6142

      #3
      This is interesting, thank you Shinshi! Please update me on the tweaks if you can.

      Gassho
      Jakuu


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

      Comment

      • Kokuu
        Treeleaf Priest
        • Nov 2012
        • 6786

        #4
        Wonderful, Shinshi! Thank you for putting your effort into doing this. I look forward to seeing what emerges.

        Many of the things are small, like which way to flip the drying cloth - or should it be flipped at all (answer is no flip)
        I always enjoyed the flip but such is life!

        Gassho
        Kokuu

        Comment

        • Shinshi
          Treeleaf Unsui
          • Jul 2010
          • 3559

          #5
          Originally posted by Jundo
          Rather than teach all three meals (although dinner is technically "medicine," not a "meal" for Vinaya reasons), we decided to focus on one. So, maybe pick one, and just do that one while alerting folks of small differences for the other meals.



          Yes, what happens is that, when tea is served for lunch, it is drunk from the middle bowl. However, after, when hot water for cleaning comes, the remaining hot water is drunk from the small bowl as the last bowl cleaned. However (correct me if I am wrong), that is really only a sip from the small bowl after the majority of the water is returned to the server, who comes around with a bucket (the water being poured in slowly with both hands, gently, so as not to splash). It will be difficult for us to recreate the server and the bucket for our home practice, so we may wish just to have the eater drink the entirety.

          Some water may be sipped from the middle bowl if, when transferring from the middle to small bowl, there is too much water in the middle bowl. NEVER put one's lips directly on the large Buddha Bowl, however.
          Thank you Jundo. And yes, it is my understanding that most of the washing water is poured into the collecting container, then a last small bit is sipped from the small bowl. I think we should start with what is the morning meal as shown in the Austin Zen Center video. I will document both ways so we can look it later and make a final decision. Maybe we could do both down the road.

          Originally posted by Jakuden
          This is interesting, thank you Shinshi! Please update me on the tweaks if you can.

          Gassho
          Jakuu


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

          I'll keep you posted. I think for this Rohatsu we don't have to do it exactly the same.


          Originally posted by Kokuu
          Wonderful, Shinshi! Thank you for putting your effort into doing this. I look forward to seeing what emerges.



          I always enjoyed the flip but such is life!

          Gassho
          Kokuu
          Well, you still get to flip the lap cloth, so there is that.

          Gassho,

          Shinshi
          Last edited by Shinshi; 11-24-2021, 08:57 PM.
          空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
          I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
          E84I - JAJ

          Comment

          • Shinshi
            Treeleaf Unsui
            • Jul 2010
            • 3559

            #6
            Originally posted by Jakuden
            This is interesting, thank you Shinshi! Please update me on the tweaks if you can.

            Gassho
            Jakuu


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
            Hi Jakuden,

            This is all still a work in progress - but, at this point - the easiest way to approach this is to follow what the priest is doing in the Austin Zen Center video, it is really close to the Japanese. There are a few things that are different that you should watch out for.

            First she has an extra fold in her drying cloth and this effects both opening and closing the bowls. There is no extra fold in the two Japanese videos. Also after folding her more folded drying cloth into a Z she gives it a flip up (our documents have a flip over) (the flip is at1:16 in her video), the Japanese videos have no flip. You can see the Japanese way at the 29 second mark in the video below.

            Also, when putting away the lap cloth she flips it up from the bottom, in the Japanese videos they flip it over - which is how it is described in our documentation. You can see the flip at 22:00 mark in the video below.

            If I find more differences I will post them. Otherwise the Austin Zen Center is very close to the Japanese, both of which tend to be different than our documentation. Both orient the utensil case in the same way, the order of removal of the utensils is the same etc.

            One difference if you watch them is that Austin Zen Center is really doing the morning meal. The Japanese the main meal at noon. The main meal has Tea, and the hungry ghost sequence.




            Gassho,

            Shinshi
            空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
            I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
            E84I - JAJ

            Comment

            • Shinshi
              Treeleaf Unsui
              • Jul 2010
              • 3559

              #7
              This is such a rabbit whole that I never thought I would be going down.

              For some unknown reason they don't show the removal of the utensils from the utensil case in the last Japanese video I posted. However, in the other Japanese video Jundo posted (included below) they do.

              In the AZC video (3:04 mark) she makes a point of first taking out the chopsticks placing two fingers on top of the chopsticks and flipping her hand over as she sets them down - so the thumb is on top at the end. Same for spoon and then setsu.

              However, in the Japanese video below (6:40 mark) you can see that they all first take out the chopsticks with their thumb on top - flipping so their fingers are on top when they finish. Same for spoon. But for the setsu they change and start with fingers on top and flip and slide the setsu between medium and small bowl.

              I'll check with Jundo and see if he has an opinion.




              Gassho,

              Shinshi
              空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
              I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
              E84I - JAJ

              Comment

              • Shinshi
                Treeleaf Unsui
                • Jul 2010
                • 3559

                #8
                Originally posted by Shinshi
                This is such a rabbit whole that I never thought I would be going down.

                For some unknown reason they don't show the removal of the utensils from the utensil case in the last Japanese video I posted. However, in the other Japanese video Jundo posted (included below) they do.

                In the AZC video (3:04 mark) she makes a point of first taking out the chopsticks placing two fingers on top of the chopsticks and flipping her hand over as she sets them down - so the thumb is on top at the end. Same for spoon and then setsu.

                However, in the Japanese video below (6:40 mark) you can see that they all first take out the chopsticks with their thumb on top - flipping so their fingers are on top when they finish. Same for spoon. But for the setsu they change and start with fingers on top and flip and slide the setsu between medium and small bowl.

                I'll check with Jundo and see if he has an opinion.




                Gassho,

                Shinshi
                Jundo says Go with Tokyo, or words to that effect.

                I feel like I am finally getting close to having this all sorted out.

                Gassho,

                Shinshi
                空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
                I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
                E84I - JAJ

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 39460

                  #9
                  Jundo said ...

                  When no know, do Tokyo! (A rhyme). Komazawa University is in Tokyo, by the way.

                  Sometimes (more than sometimes), these "traditions" start because someone makes a mistake, and everyone copies it, and then it is the new "tradition."

                  On small points like this, if we get it "wrong" too, we can just call it "The Way of the 'Treeleaf Style/School' of Oryoki'
                  Also,

                  One difference if you watch them is that Austin Zen Center is really doing the morning meal. The Japanese the main meal at noon. The main meal has Tea, and the hungry ghost sequence.
                  By that, do you mean leaving a few grains of food on the top of the Setsu handle, to be collected for the Hungry Ghosts? We definitely should include that in our Ceremony, although it will have to be adjusted in some way as nobody comes around to collect it (the servers come around with what looks like a tiny wooden household whiskbroom/scraper and dust pan, seen at 26:30 in the above Komazawa video). I would encourage folks to place it somehow on the serving tray or a small dish at the side, then leave it outside under a tree for the birds and insects later (that is actually what the Japanese do with the collections) ... something like that.

                  Gassho, J
                  Last edited by Jundo; 11-25-2021, 12:19 AM.
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Kokuu
                    Treeleaf Priest
                    • Nov 2012
                    • 6786

                    #10
                    By that, do you mean leaving a few grains of food on the top of the Setsu handle, to be collected for the Hungry Ghosts? We definitely should include that in our Ceremony, although it will have to be adjusted in some way as nobody comes around to collect it (the servers come around with what looks like a tiny wooden household whiskbroom and dust pan). I would encourage folks to place it somehow on the serving tray or a small dish at the side, then leave it outside under a tree for the birds and insects later (that is actually what the Japanese do with the collections) ... something like that.
                    I think that is what we have always done.

                    Gassho
                    Kokuu

                    Comment

                    • Shinshi
                      Treeleaf Unsui
                      • Jul 2010
                      • 3559

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jundo
                      Jundo said ...



                      Also,



                      By that, do you mean leaving a few grains of food on the top of the Setsu handle, to be collected for the Hungry Ghosts? We definitely should include that in our Ceremony, although it will have to be adjusted in some way as nobody comes around to collect it (the servers come around with what looks like a tiny wooden household whiskbroom/scraper and dust pan, seen at 26:30 in the above Komazawa video). I would encourage folks to place it somehow on the serving tray or a small dish at the side, then leave it outside under a tree for the birds and insects later (that is actually what the Japanese do with the collections) ... something like that.

                      Gassho, J
                      Yes, the few grains on the Setsu handle that is collected. I think it is a great idea to include it, it feels important to me. As you say, we will have to modify it a bit but we will get it in.

                      Gassho,

                      Shinshi
                      空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
                      I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
                      E84I - JAJ

                      Comment

                      • Shinshi
                        Treeleaf Unsui
                        • Jul 2010
                        • 3559

                        #12
                        I turns out there are more differences. They get more and more subtle.

                        In addition to the difference of the extra fold in the Austin video: in the Japanese video they place the drying cloth down on the utensils and then rotate them counter clockwise as they set them down, so the end of the utensil case is facing right. In the Austin video they do the little flip up and set them down turning clock wise, end of case facing left. In the Austin video she makes a point of saying that the end of the case always faces to the left.

                        When using the drying cloth on the bowls the Japanese bring the cloth to the bowl from the bottom while in the Austin video she brings it down from the top.

                        In the Japanese videos they sort of just crumple up the drying cloth while in the Austin video she has a particular way of working the cloth in the bowl.

                        In the Japanese video they are actually pulling food from the server with the spoon as food is delivered in the Buddha bowl and then they leave it there. In the Austin video the spoon is placed in the Buddha bowl during the Bowl Raising verse. I was just reading something in the Les Kaye Oryoki pdf that might explain the difference.

                        In the live Japanese video when they place the setsu in the Buddha bowl, while retrieving the spoon for mouth washing, they grab the spoon with their ring finger in one motion (I think that might be what we did). In the Austin video she makes two distinct, separate moves. Setsu down first then picking up the spoon. Interestingly the Japanese training video doesn't do like the live Japanese video.

                        During the bowl raising verse, the Japanese lay out the chopsticks in a very specific two handed manner - Right hand on the handles, left hand at the pointed end. In the Austin video she just lays them down.

                        When wet cleaning the Buddha Bowl the Japanese leave the bowl on the mat, in the Austin video she brings it to her left knee and cleans it there.

                        When picking up and placing the lap cloth, the Japanese leave it long and flip it over the top. In the Austin video she puts an extra fold in the lap cloth and flips it up from the bottom. She says the extra fold is because we use larger nap cloths in the West.

                        After mouth washing the Japanese videos use the same orientation of the chop sticks and spoon, but they lay them down on the left side - below the Buddha bowl. In the Austin video she lays them down on the right side.

                        And that is what I have seen so far.

                        So I know this feels like kind of a lot and a bit messy. I wanted to write them all down here so that they were available as a reference in the future.

                        I am looking at some other things today and I think I might have a way to kind of reconcile all this so it is less messy.

                        Gassho, Shinshi

                        SaT-LaH
                        Last edited by Shinshi; 11-27-2021, 10:06 PM.
                        空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
                        I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
                        E84I - JAJ

                        Comment

                        • Sekishi
                          Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
                          • Apr 2013
                          • 5670

                          #13
                          I'mma just leave this here:
                          The "Dharma" and "food" are one true form and cannot be handled in an ordinary confrontational or comparative way. Whenever we spread out the oryoki bowls, we must think deeply about Dogen Zenji's words and thought in "The Dharma


                          Nicely illustrated and broken down into step by step instructions. The chants themselves are a little different than the ones we've used for the past few years though.

                          Gassho,
                          Sekishi
                          #sat #lah
                          Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

                          Comment

                          • Shinshi
                            Treeleaf Unsui
                            • Jul 2010
                            • 3559

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Sekishi
                            I'mma just leave this here:
                            The "Dharma" and "food" are one true form and cannot be handled in an ordinary confrontational or comparative way. Whenever we spread out the oryoki bowls, we must think deeply about Dogen Zenji's words and thought in "The Dharma


                            Nicely illustrated and broken down into step by step instructions. The chants themselves are a little different than the ones we've used for the past few years though.

                            Gassho,
                            Sekishi
                            #sat #lah
                            Thank you Sekishi. I have been all through these as well as the older ones that these replace. as I recall, Jundo has said in the past that he thinks there are some issues with these. But more, they are not explicit enough to resolve the discrepancies. I have also looked at the videos from ZMM and Minnesota Zen Center but they are not useful in helping resolve these questions either. I have looked at every Oryoki resource I could find. My head gets to swimming sometimes.

                            Gassho, Shinshi

                            SaT-LaH
                            空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
                            I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
                            E84I - JAJ

                            Comment

                            • Sekishi
                              Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
                              • Apr 2013
                              • 5670

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Shinshi
                              Thank you Sekishi. I have been all through these as well as the older ones that these replace. as I recall, Jundo has said in the past that he thinks there are some issues with these. But more, they are not explicit enough to resolve the discrepancies. I have also looked at the videos from ZMM and Minnesota Zen Center but they are not useful in helping resolve these questions either. I have looked at every Oryoki resource I could find. My head gets to swimming sometimes.
                              Ok. I just wanted to make sure. I’m afraid I’ve only been half paying attention to the oryoki discussion.

                              Gassho,
                              Sekishi
                              #sat #lah


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
                              Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

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