4/24 - Branching Streams - A Short Talk During Z

[prg5001]

Re: 4/24 - Branching Streams - A Short Talk During Z

Also, it might not be a bad idea to be aware of such discursive thoughts off the cushion and see if they really help or not.

Not quite sure what your saying here. Zen is our natural state on and off the cushion. Discursive thinking never leads to anything good from my experience. However, one should not try to get rid of it (the clouds thing).

ie.

Walking to the store (I use this example a lot) I could be going over all kinds of stuff not realizing that I'm just sinking more and more into what? Anyway. When body mind is balanced there's little unnecessary reaction, and thought. You are precisely where you are. Body and mind are not separate. When discursive thinking is there, this is reflected through body as well. It could be in the form of reaction. You hear a loud noise and jump. That shows you your not really paying attention. I don't want to get into it, but there is thinking, and there is getting lost in thought.

Gassho

Hi Will,

Yes, I think that says and says it better than what I was trying to say.

Cheers,

Paul

[Jundo]

Re: 4/24 - Branching Streams - A Short Talk During Z

Also, it might not be a bad idea to be aware of such discursive thoughts off the cushion and see if they really help or not.

Not quite sure what your saying here. Zen is our natural state on and off the cushion. Discursive thinking never leads to anything good from my experience. However, one should not try to get rid of it (the clouds thing).

ie.

Walking to the store (I use this example a lot) I could be going over all kinds of stuff not realizing that I'm just sinking more and more into what? Anyway. When body mind is balanced there's little unnecessary reaction, and thought. You are precisely where you are. Body and mind are not separate. When discursive thinking is there, this is reflected through body as well. It could be in the form of reaction. You hear a loud noise and jump. That shows you your not really paying attention. I don't want to get into it, but there is thinking, and there is getting lost in thought.

Gassho

Hi Will,

This is very well said, but I would not overplay one's cards.

I would not say that "discursive thinking never leads to anything good." In fact, it is often quite good! I would not say that we should never "get lost in thinking". Why not, if no harm to it? Our natural state on and off the cushion are the same in a certain sense, but often (or life would be much poorer and bland) very different.

For example, to use the barking dog story ...

Another useful observation which Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett made about meditation was the distinction between natural and deliberate thought. Suppose, for instance, that a dog barks while we are meditating. We naturally hear the sound, and perhaps the thought occurs to us that a dog is barking. These are examples of natural thought; they are part of things-as-they-are, part of simple, aware sitting. This is meditation, and nothing needs to be done about it. But suppose that we continue the chain of thought: we next think that the barking disturbs our meditation, that our neighbor should control "THAT DARN DOG" better, that something really should be done about this lack of consideration·, and the next thing we are aware of is that we "wake up", realizing that we have spent the last five minutes giving our neighbor a lecture.

Yes, during Zazen, we should sit as Kennett Roshi describes. Yes, after sitting Zazen, we should not fall into unnecessary resentment and anger at the situation, the dog and his owner (nor separation between ourselves, the dog and its owner!) HOWEVER, we can also get up off the Zafu and think "the barking disturbs our quiet house, that our neighbor should control their dog better, that something really should be done about this lack of consideration, and we need to come up with a plan to solve this problem!"

Same with walking to the store, going over all kinds of stuff in your head, daydreaming! DREAM AWAY, and enjoy the show. Get lost in your thoughts (so long as they are not harmful thoughts of greed, anger and such). One does not need to "pay attention" all the time, and it is fine quite often not to pay attention. ENJOY YOUR DAYDREAM!

This is very much related to my posting on the "movie theatre", and falling into the movie, here:

viewtopic.php?p=22849#p22849

So, don't think that "Zen" is to be a certain "natural state" all the time. It is all our "natural state" all the time. It is just a matter of which "natural state" is harmful or appropriate at which moment.

Gassho, Jundo

[Rich]

Re: 4/24 - Branching Streams - A Short Talk During Z

Jundo, thank you for making that clear. When I drive a car I try to just drive. but I use thinking alot and sometimes it uses me. It's not as big problem now because I know not thinking.

[will]

Re: 4/24 - Branching Streams - A Short Talk During Z

Same with walking to the store, going over all kinds of stuff in your head, daydreaming! DREAM AWAY, and enjoy the show.

I should point out, which I didn't do very clearly. Getting lost in thought (as I called it), was much more than just "getting lost in thought". It was reaction, tension, and struggle. We need to be clear what we are talking about I think. Having reactions to many things each moment through body and mind, is not just "Daydreaming."
There is a clear distinction that one notices. When Body mind is out of whack, it is out of whack, causing suffering and reaction not only for oneself, but for others as well. It depends on the person and their reactivity to phenomena that arise.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Re: 4/24 - Branching Streams - A Short Talk During Z

Same with walking to the store, going over all kinds of stuff in your head, daydreaming! DREAM AWAY, and enjoy the show.

I should point out, which I didn't do very clearly. Getting lost in thought (as I called it), was much more than just "getting lost in thought". It was reaction, tension, and struggle. We need to be clear what we are talking about I think. Having reactions to many things each moment through body and mind, is not just "Daydreaming."
There is a clear distinction that one notices. When Body mind is out of whack, it is out of whack, causing suffering and reaction not only for oneself, but for others as well. It depends on the person and their reactivity to phenomena that arise.

Gassho

Hi Will,

Again, very nicely said.

I just wish to repost something I repost from time to time ... a reminder that although Zazen is sometimes "balance" and sometimes "out of whack", Zazen is NEVER "out of whack".

It is the "the is good Zazen, and bad Zazen" ... but never any "bad Zazen" post ...

It is very important, I believe, because ... even when we learn how to sit balanced, "right" Zazen, mind and body centered and still ... we are missing the real heart of Zazen if we feel that true Zazen is only that.

I think it so important that I am going to repost it as its own thread in the "Zazen" forum ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1623

Gassho, Jundo