3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

[Tb]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

Hi all,

I continue to be surprised (if not downright shocked) at how much suffering I have caused myself, but the fact that I can type that without a feeling of panic surprises me even more. Because it doesn't matter what came before...there is now and it always will be so.

Gassho,
Scott

Hi.

First step to doing something is to recognize it...

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Dosho]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

Hi all,

I continue to be surprised (if not downright shocked) at how much suffering I have caused myself, but the fact that I can type that without a feeling of panic surprises me even more. Because it doesn't matter what came before...there is now and it always will be so.

Gassho,
Scott

[Jenny]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

I read somewhere that the Spanish are very good at going around with long faces if they are not feeling
very happy -this of course may not be true. However if we did it here there would be a few people we know
crossing to the other side of the street. "Cry, and you cry alone", as the saying goes. However maybe
Susuki Roshi means us to do just that and not inflict our misery on all around us. :cry:

Jenny

[John]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

....when you are sad you should be completely involved in being hot or being sad, without caring for happiness.....

In normal life that is a bit impractical though? When someone says 'How are you?' you can't say 'I am really sad today', can you? We just trot out the usual platitudes - 'I'm fine, how are you?' Maybe we should try to have the courage to show our true feelings?

Gassho,
Doshin

[Jundo]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

It sometimes seems to me that there are too many words, not enough practice. Books, websites, forums, too much opportunity to obsess over words and conceptual thought, and not enough getting down to actual practice. Zen seems to attract people who like to intellectualize what they are doing. [/quote

Suzuki Roshi also says]“Later, in Tozan’s time (three generations after Sekito) people got stuck in word games about brightness and darkness. They liked talking about the bright side, the dark side, and the middle way, but they lost the point of how to obtain real freedom.”

Seems like we can see a bit of this happening in present day Buddhism as well. As Jundo says “Zazen is all you need!” Of course conceptual understanding is important and as Jundo also says zazen is a bit like clay and one needs some type of framework or what I would call a “cognitive set.” Can be a bit of a razor’s edge to get it just right.[/quote]

I just added some words on another thread where it was argued that maybe we should intellectualize more. Please have a look ...

viewtopic.php?p=21239#p21239

Yes, dry words without Zazen ... just dry words. In fact, by Zazen ... some words become useless. Too many words, or the wrongs words at the wrong place and time, may even become obstacles.

But Zazen without words of guidance by some wise, experienced teachers ... adrift, lost.

[John]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

Is another way of putting it - "being the experience and not the experiencer"? When being the experience of whatever is happening in each changing moment through our senses without adding our own
programming to it?

I agree Jenny. But as you say, it's so hard to do.

"The poem begins, 'the mind of the great sage of India.' That is Buddha's big mind that includes everything. The mind we have when we practice is we're not bothered. That's zazen, whatever happens to us, we're not bothered. This is the stage you have to reach, the stage of not being bothered, whatever happens. "It is something happening in the vast sky. Whatver kind of bird flies through it, it doesn't care. This is the mind that is transmitted from Buddha to us."

And maybe it is not just not caring about what happens, but as Jenny says, not adding a lot of evaluations and judgements about how things and people should be and should behave. But why can't I do that? I SHOULD be able to do it

Gassho,
Doshin

[BrianW]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

It sometimes seems to me that there are too many words, not enough practice. Books, websites, forums, too much opportunity to obsess over words and conceptual thought, and not enough getting down to actual practice. Zen seems to attract people who like to intellectualize what they are doing. [/quote

Suzuki Roshi also says]“Later, in Tozan’s time (three generations after Sekito) people got stuck in word games about brightness and darkness. They liked talking about the bright side, the dark side, and the middle way, but they lost the point of how to obtain real freedom.”

[/quote]

Seems like we can see a bit of this happening in present day Buddhism as well. As Jundo says “Zazen is all you need!” Of course conceptual understanding is important and as Jundo also says zazen is a bit like clay and one needs some type of framework or what I would call a “cognitive set.” Can be a bit of a razor’s edge to get it just right.

[CharlesC]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

My notes on talk five.

Everything has its own nature and form and when you hear a voice it is either agreeable or disagreeable ....It is our attachment to them that causes suffering...Things in themselves have no good or bad nature

I take this to meant that there is always discrimination, good and bad, agreeable and disagreeable, but once we realize that there is inherently no discrimination in things, that it is something we create ourselves, even though it is an inherent part of our existence, then we don't suffer so much.

Sometimes you should be a suffering Buddha. Sometimes you should be a crying Buddha. Sometimes you should be a very happy Buddha.

Zazen doesn't take you to a place where it is neither cold nor hot, where there is no pleasure or suffering. It doesn't remove your feelings and emotions.

They have a true joy that will always be with them.The basic tone of life remains the same, and in it there are some happy melodies and some sad melodies

But regardless of what happens buddhas have a true joy that will always be with them. Is this like having a fundamental trust in the nature of things? That things can never throw the buddha person completely into a black hole of despair because they have this faith in the nature of the absolute which sustains them (or they have a sense of the absolute all of the time).

You do this not by studying a lecture but through your practice.

Suzuki several times mentions the importance of practice compared to study.

Words can help your understanding of things. When you are very dualistic, when you are getting confused, they can help you. But if you are too interested in talking about these things, you will lose your way. We should be interested in actual zazen, not in these words, and we should practice actual zazen.

It sometimes seems to me that there are too many words, not enough practice. Books, websites, forums, too much opportunity to obsess over words and conceptual thought, and not enough getting down to actual practice. Zen seems to attract people who like to intellectualize what they are doing. Does that call for more scolding from the teacher? :-)

Dogen Zenji's way is to find the meaning in each thing - like a grain of rice or a cup of water

Instead of seeing things in just a dualistic way, things just to be used for your benefit like a grain of rice or a cup of water, you can also seem them as the absolute if you pay full respect to them.

When you live completely involved in the dualistic world, you have the absolute world in its true sense. When you practice zazen without seeking for enlightenment or seeking for anything, then there is true enlightenment

In every moment of your day-to-life the absolute is present, and the way to learn this is to practice zazen without seeking for anything. You already have it.

[Shogen]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

Hi Jenny
Yes! Another nice way of putting it into words. Thanks Gassho Zak

[Jenny]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

Is another way of putting it - "being the experience and not the experiencer"? When being the experience of whatever is happening in each changing moment through our senses without adding our own
programming to it? If we are the experiencer on the other hand, we create a subject and an object.
I find it so difficult to do, but as Toni Packer would say, it is "the work of the moment".
Jenny

[Shogen]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

Hi John H
After reading your response I think what I was trying to say was, stop the grasping or wishing for something other than this moment and there it is just this moment. I guess it's the same destination with different approaches. Anyway, thanks for your posts they are always insightful. Gassho Zak

[jrh001]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

One thing you said, "Composure-hot,cold,happy,or suffering we should live in the present moment" caused me to have the following thought. We do live in the present moment and of this we have no choice. If we just have this realization it can make all the difference. If we think we are not in this moment completely is this not delusion? What do you think?

Hi Zak,

To be fully in the present moment means full acceptance without judgement, "nothing to add or take away" as Jundo says or have "composure" as Norman Fischer mentioned in his talk. I agree we have no choice but to be in the present but often we're wishing for something bigger, better or brighter. I find it takes some effort to be fully in the moment. Like Norman Fischer's homework exercise, I have to tell myself to stop, watch the breath and focus the thoughts. I'm fairly sure I'm not completely in the moment for most of the time.

JohnH

[Shogen]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

Hi John H
Very good post! One thing you said, "Composure-hot,cold,happy,or suffering we should live in the present moment" caused me to have the following thought. We do live in the present moment and of this we have no choice. If we just have this realization it can make all the difference. If we think we are not in this moment completely is this not delusion? What do you think? Gassho Zak

[jrh001]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

Hi,

Some notes on talk 5:

* we suffer because we are attached to the things we like and are bothered by things we dislike
* dark - no differentiation, non-dualistic, no good or bad things in themselves
* light - differentiation, dualistic
* Zen teaching - punishment or praise - same understanding with different expression
* composure - hot, cold, happy or suffering - we should live in the present moment

* Sekito ~750 - Sandokai
* Tozan ~850 - word games about light, dark, middle
* Dogen ~1200 - complete involvement in the moment (without thinking), attainment through practice, not words.
* Suzuki 1999 - "But if you are too interested in talking about these things, you will lose your way." (same message as Sengcan in my signature..)

Norman Fischer:
* San - there's always judgement - even to distinguish things involves judgement
* in dark, there's no multiplicity, we cannot make judgements or distinctions
* in light, we form distinctions, likes/dislikes
* Buddhists see both dark and light simultaneously (like Jundo's example of viewing two channels at once)
* we live in the world of San but realise that it's not the complete truth
* concepts/perceptions/judgements have a basis that's beyond concepts - don't get stuck in them
* group discussion exercise - are there times when you can trust, accept and completely give yourself to the moment, is it possible?
* homework - stop at moments during the day and focus on the breath.

JohnH

[Shohei]

Re: 3/13 - Branching Streams: 5th Talk - Today We May Be Happy

That's a toughy, actually staying in bed a bit longer is good. Getting up straight away and getting on with what must be done is bad.

What is selfish or selfless?

If I stay in bed a bit longer I ease myself into the world, if I jump out bed, I'm grumpy and upset people.

Is that a good excuse or what?

Cheers,

Paul

That's my reasoning too!
Only problem is too long and im driving like a maniac to make it on time or im just flat out late for work and I still end up grumpy and have upset people :C
Its a fine balance there for sure

Gassho, Shohei