Blue Cliff Record (Case 10) Mu Chou's Thieving Phoney

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40539

    Blue Cliff Record (Case 10) Mu Chou's Thieving Phoney

    A Shout Out to All of You,

    This week, the POINTER seems to be saying something like. you can look for enlightenment up in the heavens, you can look down here on Earth and find all the ordinary beautiful and ugly things of this world shine with light, but most vital is to put it all together and bring it forth in the pivot point which is your life. It is what you do that counts most.

    The CASE has a fellow give one of those dramatic, wordless responses ... in this case, shouting in response to the question "Where ya from?"

    Sometimes, such wordless actions can be an excellent way to express the aspect of Zen Wisdom beyond words, separate descriptions, things. Others include banging on the floor, clapping one's hands, just raising a fist and the like. In some of his talks in Eihei Koroku, Master Dogen did some of that too. But, throughout the history of Zen there has been the issue of people ... including teachers, and even today ... just going through the motions, doing shouts or gestures ... just as a kind of theatre, maybe without real understanding. At times, it was as if it was just how teachers and monks thought they were supposed to act, so everybody started doing it. Dogen criticized this, such as here in Sansuikyo:

    Now, in Great Song China there are careless fellows who form groups; they cannot be set straight by the few true masters. They say that ... any words having to do with logical thought are not buddha ancestors’ Zen words, and that only illogical stories are buddha ancestors’ expressions. In this way they consider Huangbo’s striking with a staff and Linji’s shout as beyond logic and unconcerned with thought; they regard these as words of great enlightenment that precede the arising of form. They say, “Ancient masters used expedient phrases, which are beyond understanding, to slash entangled vines.” Those who say this have never seen a true master, and they have no eye of understanding. They are immature, foolish fellows not even worth discussing.
    It seems like the teacher here thought this such a case.

    On the other hand, there were times when such a heartfelt expression represents some real understanding beyond ordinary expression.

    Having a "dragon's head but snake's tail" means something like "started off looking good on the surface, but lacked substance in fact." I believe that "Guest/Host" here refers to the student/the teacher.

    I think that the word "to change" in the VERSE COMMENTARY is better rendered as something like "to act."

    QUESTIONS:

    -- How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?

    -- Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond! (REALLY TELL US YOUR FIRST RESPONSE WITHOUT PONDERING THE QUESTION).
    .

    Gassho, J
    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Ramine
    Member
    • Jul 2023
    • 164

    #2
    Minimal thinking today, as requested...
    -- How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?
    They have to see and feel the person beyond the shout. What's in their eyes? Is the shout heartfelt? Does the cry shout out with compassion and care for the teacher? Does it feel like it is the shout beyond all shouts? Does it leave everyone else speechless? - and the master probably already had some idea about the student's ability...

    -- Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond! (REALLY TELL US YOUR FIRST RESPONSE WITHOUT PONDERING THE QUESTION).
    My first response was... I take his hand and we sit down to watch the sunset.

    Ramine
    Sat and Lah

    Comment

    • Tai Do
      Member
      • Jan 2019
      • 1456

      #3
      -- How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?
      I guess, by knowing who done the shout
      -- Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond! (REALLY TELL US YOUR FIRST RESPONSE WITHOUT PONDERING THE QUESTION).
      I would simply bow.

      Gassho,
      Tai Do
      Satlah
      怠努 (Tai Do) - Lazy Effort
      (also known as Mateus )

      禅戒一如 (Zen Kai Ichi Nyo) - Zazen and the Precepts are One!

      Comment

      • Tairin
        Member
        • Feb 2016
        • 2837

        #4
        How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?
        Through the sincerity of the shout. Does it seem to come from a place of true inspiration or does it seem to be just acting based on some idea of what is expected

        --
        Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond!
        I don’t know.


        Tairin
        Sat today and lah
        泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

        Comment

        • Ramine
          Member
          • Jul 2023
          • 164

          #5
          If I can add a small note to my response. I said to watch a sunset (because it's prettier) but really, it could be a pile of junk, or anything.
          Ramine
          Sat and Lah

          Comment

          • Matt Johnson
            Member
            • Jun 2024
            • 423

            #6
            1. They can't and it's none of their business anyway.

            2. Hit myself in the head with my phone.

            Oh man tears for fears takes me back...

            _/\_
            sat/ah
            matt

            PS: This is the same Mouzhou who slammed the door on Yunmen's leg breaking it.
            Last edited by Matt Johnson; 10-20-2024, 01:20 AM.

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 40539

              #7
              Hit myself in the head with my phone.
              How do you call the ambulance for the concussion? (You can share a ride with the guy with the broken leg.)

              Gassho, J
              stlah
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • Hoko
                Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 458

                #8
                -- How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?
                The same way you know a sincere person from a fake; viz in relation to everything else you know about them.

                If you only heard Ray Parker's "Ghostbusters" you wouldn't know that it was copying Huey Lewis' "I Want A New Drug" but once you hear both songs you can't unhear it.

                Other notable examples include Vanilla Ice's "Ice Ice, Baby" (which stole its bass line from the Queen/Bowie collaboration "Under Pressure") and George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" which was ruled "virtually identical" by a US District Court judge to The Chiffons' 1963 song "He's So Fine".

                Gutei's finger, Rinzai's shout, Ummon's nose-pulling; if you'd never heard of the original version, how would you know the dragon's shout from that of the snake?

                -- Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond! (REALLY TELL US YOUR FIRST RESPONSE WITHOUT PONDERING THE QUESTION).
                "Do good. Refrain from evil. Obey the precepts."

                Gassho,
                Hoko

                ST/LAH
                Last edited by Hoko; 10-22-2024, 10:15 PM.
                法 Dharma
                口 Mouth

                Comment

                • Meishin
                  Member
                  • May 2014
                  • 824

                  #9
                  1. The presence or absence of an icky feeling.
                  2. Silence. Bow.

                  Gassho
                  Meishin
                  stlah

                  Comment

                  • ZenJay
                    Member
                    • Apr 2024
                    • 189

                    #10
                    QUESTIONS:

                    -- How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?

                    -- Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond! (REALLY TELL US YOUR FIRST RESPONSE WITHOUT PONDERING THE QUESTION).


                    1. From the strength and source of the roar, and if there was any fire with it (to burn away ignorance)

                    2. First thing that popped up in my mind: Grabs a glass of salt water and starts gurgling…

                    Gassho,
                    Jay

                    Sat/lah today

                    Comment

                    • Onsho
                      Member
                      • Aug 2022
                      • 136

                      #11

                      Explaining how the old teachers are being able to tell the difference is like reading a book on how to meditate. The words just get in the way.

                      And frankly I would beat his ass for being such a shit. I dont shout twice at trolls.

                      Keisaku in hand
                      Onshō
                      SatLah

                      Comment

                      • BikeZen
                        Member
                        • Jan 2024
                        • 78

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jundo
                        QUESTIONS:

                        -- How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?

                        -- Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond! (REALLY TELL US YOUR FIRST RESPONSE WITHOUT PONDERING THE QUESTION).

                        Gassho, J
                        stlah
                        Dragons shout with fire that burns away the dust to see things as they are. Snakes shout with poison being the very things we consider poisonous (our delusions and attachments). But neither are separate from enlightenment. The "poison" of discriminative thinking is not something to be eliminated but rather to be seen in its true nature. Both are medicine for our practice but in different ways.

                        STOP! I got it already.

                        Gassho,
                        Bill
                        Sat/Lah

                        Comment

                        • Hoseki
                          Member
                          • Jun 2015
                          • 679

                          #13

                          -- How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?

                          I don't know for sure. But based on the koan I think if the student is only giving stereotypical zen responses then they would probably suspect a snake shouting.


                          -- Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond! (REALLY TELL US YOUR FIRST RESPONSE WITHOUT PONDERING THE QUESTION).

                          I think I would just carry on with what I was doing before.

                          Gassho,

                          Hoseki
                          sattoday/lah

                          Comment

                          • Chikyou
                            Member
                            • May 2022
                            • 659

                            #14
                            Do I think the old teachers could tell a dragon’s snout from that of a snake? With enough experience, I think most teachers can, at least most of the time. (No one is perfect!) Today and centuries ago.

                            Edit: LOL ok, I misread “shout” as “snout” and didn’t realize it until I went back and read others’ responses. Oops. I think my response still works though so I’ll leave it.

                            How would I have responded? I don’t think I would have answered the original question by shouting in the first place. I would have just told the teacher where I was from. Perhaps that is also the wrong answer.

                            My first impression is that the monk was trying to impress the teacher with a “profound “ response. When pressed, he didn’t have any other plan. The teacher saw right through it.

                            Gassho,
                            SatLah
                            Chikyō
                            Last edited by Chikyou; 10-29-2024, 01:32 PM.
                            Chikyō 知鏡
                            (KellyLM)

                            Comment

                            • Anthony
                              Member
                              • Aug 2023
                              • 97

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jundo
                              -- How do you think these old Teachers could tell a real dragon shout from a snake shout?
                              If the shout is in the right place and in the right time, it is a real dragon shout. Otherwise, it is a snake shout.

                              Originally posted by Jundo
                              -- Also, if you were asked by Mu Chou, "After three or four shouts, then what?" what would you respond? Don't hesitate, don't think it over, respond! (REALLY TELL US YOUR FIRST RESPONSE WITHOUT PONDERING THE QUESTION).
                              My honest first thought is to shout again...but I don't really agree with that on second thought. But since we're not pondering here, I'll shout again!

                              Gassho, Anthony
                              satlah

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