Blue Cliff Record (Case 8) Ts'ui Yen's Eyebrows

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40539

    Blue Cliff Record (Case 8) Ts'ui Yen's Eyebrows






    Dear All,

    We now turn to this case of eyebrows, without batting an eyelash or raising eyebrows.

    I really appreciate the wise and insightful responses from folks to recent cases. One point of caution, however:

    Don't answer just to be creative and clever sounding. Make sure that you honestly are expressing some feeling and insight you have for the point of the Koan. If you don't, or are not so confident about it, it is okay to say that. It is okay also to try, but say one is not sure. But also have confidence if you feel some confidence! Just really try to express understanding sincerely, not just sound cute and witty.

    This week's Koan is considered a hard one by many commentators.

    The POINTER is not so hard, I think. It merely makes the point that those who truly Understand can make real use of their understanding, and are as at home with it as a tiger in the mountains or a dragon in water (Master Dogen made the same reference in Fukanzazengi.) Those who don't understand are stuck like a sheep caught in a fence (or like the guy in an old Chinese fable who sits around on a stump to catch a rabbit waiting for a rabbit to jump in his lap.) The rest says that a Teacher's well expressed phrase or teaching is like a lion or a sword that cuts through ignorance. It can leave everyone thunderstuck and silent. Sometimes it is tailored to the conditions of the moment. It can tailor words to speak to the wise or to speak to the ignorant. Sometimes a teacher can turn a blade of grass into Buddha (the ordinary is cosmic), sometimes it can turn Buddha into a blade of grass (the sacred is most ordinary and in every tiny thing.)

    In the CASE, a teacher gave Dharma Talks all during Ango. He then asked, "Did my eyebrows fall out?" This comes from the ancient saying that, if a teacher taught wrong dharma teachings, he would be punished by all his/her eyebrows falling out.

    Teachers, of course, just try to express the teachings as best they can, although words can never really express perfectly what needs to be known for oneself.

    Three commentators respond, one saying something like, "The old thief (the teacher) is acting cowardly, like he is not sure of himself (but is he really unsure?). Another says, "He still has his eyebrows." A third says, "Barrier," which may mean something like, "Here's a test to pass! (but how does one "non-pass" what is actually a "non-barrier" to a gateless gate, a test about Zen teachings about non-eyebrows that can never be measured? )"

    The VERSE just riffs on the above. The line about "He loses his money and suffers punishment" may be something like saying "The guy can't win no matter what he says.")

    QUESTION: Of course, we are not told anything about what Ts'ui Yen taught during all his talks during Ango. So, how are we to judge? Does he have his eyebrows or not?
    .

    Gassho, J
    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-05-2024, 02:31 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Matt Johnson
    Member
    • Jun 2024
    • 423

    #2
    永萎代師 (Yung Wei Dài Shī)

    Ch’ien Liu called him Yung Ming Ta Shi
    Great Teacher of Eternal Brilliance,
    I call him 永萎代師

    But you can call him ‘Papaw’.
    He no longer has to worry about his nomadic eyes
    Too many Dad jokes had the assembly grinning
    Perhaps groaning?

    “Who stole your jokes, old man?”

    “Nah you don't get it, He's funnier than ever!”

    “F***ing shit stick”...

    Not everyone loses their eyebrows when they get old and what else that means… Only those that do will understand why this is funny.

    _/\_
    sat/ah
    matt

    Comment

    • Tairin
      Member
      • Feb 2016
      • 2837

      #3
      Of course, we are not told anything about what Ts'ui Yen taught during all his talks during Ango. So, how are we to judge? Does he have his eyebrows or not?
      It seems to depend on the student responding. We know that not every teaching resonates. For me sometimes a teaching hits the mark and provides some sort of opening. Sometimes the teaching is just a string of words. Sometimes I get different insights out of a teaching i had previously read/heard.

      I believe Ts’ui Yen was teaching the Dharma with sincerity so I believe he has kept his eyebrows.

      By the way this Koan also shows up in the Book of Equanimity as Case 71


      Tairin
      Sat today and lah
      Last edited by Tairin; 10-06-2024, 09:21 PM.
      泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

      Comment

      • Onsho
        Member
        • Aug 2022
        • 136

        #4
        Ok hear me out...

        I think him asking "did my eyebrows fall out " is him feeling pretty clever. Pleased with himself even. Asking them if they even noticed what the old thief has been up to the whole time.

        What did he steal if there was nothing to steal?

        The first man sees him attempting to praise himself and sees it as a sign of weakness

        The second man did not catch on to his act and thinks he is innocent, still having his eyebrows

        The third man sees the test. Both sides of the story. Not one way. Not the other way. But both.

        Did he truly get away with it, or did he lose his eyebrows? To answer both these questions: Yes

        Gassho
        Onshō
        SatLah

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40539

          #5
          I just want to say that the above, down to earth, really insightful responses from Tairin and Onsho really rang my bell this morning. Nice insights.

          Gassho, J
          stlah
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Hoseki
            Member
            • Jun 2015
            • 679

            #6
            I once had a teacher who said to us he was only responsible for what he said not what we heard. I think that applies here. Three different responses each reflecting the responder rather than Ts'ui Yen words. So I think he still has his eyebrows even if some students can't see them.

            I initially wrote this poem but I think its more about me trying to understand rather than offering anything of substance.

            heaven and earth
            to see one we look away from the other
            Ts'ui Yen points downward
            some look down, some look up
            who can count Ts'ui Yens eyebrows?

            Edit: I think another way to look at it would be from the prospective of his students. So I think all theses are both true and false.
            1. Pao Fu: Ts'ui Yen doesn't have his eyebrows
            2. Ch'ang Ch'ing: Ts'ui Yen does have his eyebrows
            3. Yun Men: It's unclear Ts'ui Yen may have eyebrows above only one eye.


            Gassho
            Hoseki
            sattoday/lah

            Last edited by Hoseki; 10-07-2024, 06:55 PM.

            Comment

            • BikeZen
              Member
              • Jan 2024
              • 78

              #7
              Originally posted by Jundo
              [CENTER]
              QUESTION: Of course, we are not told anything about what Ts'ui Yen taught during all his talks during Ango. So, how are we to judge? Does he have his eyebrows or not?
              Gassho, J
              stlah
              thufir.jpg

              In the Bloodstream Sermon, Bodhidharma says: "Long ago, the monk Good Star was able to recite the entire canon. But he didn’t escape the wheel because he didn’t see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite a few sutras or shastras and think it’s the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your mind, reciting so much prose is useless."
              ~Red Pine translation, retrieved 10/7/2024 from https://terebess.hu/zen/Bodhidharma.pdf

              Does he have his eyebrows? It doesn't matter whether he does or not, what was said during Ts'ui Yen's summer matters in whether they (WE) have understanding and what use is made in the real world. Until then USELESS, eyebrows or no.

              How are we to judge? When we get off the zabuton and carry on with our day, then if we have Understanding we'll know.

              Gassho,
              Bill
              Sat/lah

              Last edited by BikeZen; 10-07-2024, 06:44 PM.

              Comment

              • Houzan
                Member
                • Dec 2022
                • 532

                #8
                How are we to judge? Does he have his eyebrows or not?

                Despite the most glorious guidance, a guest within a host cannot return home. Thus the eyebrows are kept.

                Moderately confident on this one. I mean, eyebrows will never really fall out due to a teaching. Maybe because the listeners are already home? Or maybe because there are no eyebrows in the first place?

                Gassho, Hōzan
                satlah
                Last edited by Houzan; 10-07-2024, 06:04 PM.

                Comment

                • Bion
                  Senior Priest-in-Training
                  • Aug 2020
                  • 4712

                  #9
                  QUESTION: Of course, we are not told anything about what Ts'ui Yen taught during all his talks during Ango. So, how are we to judge? Does he have his eyebrows or not?

                  Swimming upstream from the tiny pond, the koi fish becomes a dragon, and after a while the dragon returns to the small pond. Ts'ui Yen also freely plucks and grows his eyebrows as needed.
                  In a sense, sometimes great understanding needs small words, sometimes it requires otherworldly statements, yet never words can fully express IT. To stand on the platform is to be willing to lose the eyebrows just to help some of the koi fish reach the dragon's layer.

                  Gassho
                  sat lah
                  Last edited by Bion; 10-08-2024, 12:15 PM.
                  "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

                  Comment

                  • Chikyou
                    Member
                    • May 2022
                    • 659

                    #10
                    Oftentimes in life I find myself like a ram, stuck in a fence. Interpreting this koan is one such time. Perhaps I should stop waiting for the rabbit.

                    Gassho,
                    SatLah
                    Chikyō
                    Chikyō 知鏡
                    (KellyLM)

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40539

                      #11
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Meishin
                        Member
                        • May 2014
                        • 824

                        #12
                        At times the student glimpses the Dharma,
                        At times not.
                        Thus glimpsing the Dharma and not glimpsing are
                        Dharma.
                        Accordingly the teachers eyebrows (appear to) come and go.

                        Gassho
                        Meishin
                        stlah

                        Comment

                        • Hoko
                          Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 458

                          #13
                          For some reason, this koan made me think about parenting.

                          When I speak to other parents who ask about my own experiences being a father I tell them:
                          If you feel like you're failing constantly then you're probably doing it right.
                          Deny your children anything and your heart breaks. Give them everything and you make entitled brats.
                          You lose your money and suffer punishment!

                          Ultimately all any parent really wants is a little gratitude and appreciation.
                          So I can certainly understand Ts'ui Yen asking if his students felt that he'd been preaching the true dharma.
                          On the one hand, he's the teacher, so how would they know?
                          On the other hand, he's asking them to judge the dharma he's taught as good or bad, which is a paradox.
                          The Ultimate Path is easy for those who avoid picking and choosing!
                          So why is he asking them to pick and choose? Good or bad? True or false?
                          Does he sincerely want them to answer the question or is he still preaching the dharma?
                          Who is qualified to say?
                          Barrier!

                          It is enough to bow and withdraw.

                          Gassho,
                          Hoko

                          ST/LAH
                          法 Dharma
                          口 Mouth

                          Comment

                          • Ramine
                            Member
                            • Jul 2023
                            • 164

                            #14
                            I read Ts'ui Yen's question as meaning something like "I've said all I had to say, do you get it?" He is done with words and he wants to see if he's been wasting his breath. The answers should demonstrate direct insight. To know the depth of their answers, we should see them face to face. The written words stay empty. The readers are face to face with emptiness. The clear jewel has no flaws.
                            Of course, we can go around in circles interpreting what the answers might mean - that's just waiting by a stump for the rabbit to show up.

                            Ramine

                            Sat

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 40539

                              #15
                              Some lovely responses this week!

                              Gassho, J
                              stlah
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                              Comment

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