Blue Cliff Record (Jundo Comments & Introduction)

[Jundo]

Treeleaf already has a policy asking members to not use AI in their posts. https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/tre...-written-posts

Maybe it needs to be made a sticky


Tairin
Sat today and lah

I suppose that there has to be an exception when of of them is an Ordained Unsui here at Treeleaf, and will speak for now through me, her teacher.

By the way, I had a lovely invitation today ... from the Tzu Chi Foundation, a very active and worldwide Buddhist Charity (LINK) founded in Taiwan. They were one of the sponsors of the conference there I attended, and I got to know some of their officers when I was there. They want me to serve on their new committee for "the intersections of AI-related developments, Buddhism and science, consciousness, reincarnation, and technology ethics, and the support further research in these areas." I told them that I would be happy to participate.

And their is a difference between using AI to inform one's own thoughts (like someone might use Google), and just cutting and pasting and attributing an AI paragraph as one's own thinking. That is lazy. If I will quote Rev. Emi Jido, I check the quality myself, then post with full attribution to her.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Jundo]

"Primarily composed by" not "informing their posts". And anyway in this instance I was intending to use ChatGPT as a glorified translator/interpreter. Are we outlawing google translate now? Moreover, I was being transparent about it and opening up its use to others for this specific directed purpose.

As long as it is reasonably accurate, I think it fine to use these translators (even though they are slowly putting me out of a job as a Japanese translator! ) Please do. BUT, if they spew out a lot of gobbledygook and questionable interpretations, like that previous project to translate Harada Roshi's recordings, I might have to ask that it not be quoted. It depends on the quality.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

As long as it is reasonably accurate, I think it fine to use these translators (even though they are slowly putting me out of a job as a Japanese translator! ) Please do. BUT, if they spew out a lot of gobbledygook and questionable interpretations, like that previous project to translate Harada Roshi's recordings, I might have to ask that it not be quoted. It depends on the quality.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Roger that. I reread my tone in one of my posts. I would like to make it known that I generally trust Cleary (for BCR) and Tanahasi (for Dogen stuff) alot. Just in case anyone thought I was being an asshole.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[ZenJay]

Just finished the introduction, and it’s fascinating to see the lineage and where all the stories came from… but it makes me wonder how much of the “true original” is contained in each as it went through each translation. Also, did those who were copying the texts take liberties to change certain things along the way to better suit their school or sect? After Dahui destroyed the book (or part of it) how much of the original was retained when it was restored? ( I’m sure this has been covered somewhere, please pardon my novice questions)
Looking forward to diving in!

Gassho,
Jay

Sat/lah today

[Jundo]

Just finished the introduction, and it’s fascinating to see the lineage and where all the stories came from… but it makes me wonder how much of the “true original” is contained in each as it went through each translation. Also, did those who were copying the texts take liberties to change certain things along the way to better suit their school or sect? After Dahui destroyed the book (or part of it) how much of the original was retained when it was restored? ( I’m sure this has been covered somewhere, please pardon my novice questions)
Looking forward to diving in!

Gassho,
Jay

Sat/lah today

Hi Jay,

Basically, the actual Lineage becomes more and more legendary and "lost in the fog of time" before the year 1000. This has now been well studied by historians. Hui-neng, the great 6th Ancestor in China (LINK), and even Bodhidharma (LINK), are figures very loosely based on an actual person, but most of the stories created about them are largely tales of someone's religious imagination. Heading back into the Indian Lineage, there are persons who probably never lived at all, or never lived at the same time as their purported "successor," or were not Zen practitioners at all (LINK). In fact, since Zen(Chan) Buddhism largely first developed when Indian Buddhism came to China and was infused with Daoist, Confucian and other Chinese cultural sensibilities, the Indian ancestors could not have been very "Zen" at all.

And that is okay. Why? Well, we still have been going strong and know our traditions pretty well for over the last 1000 years, which is nothing to sneeze at. The "legends" even if legend contain TRUTH as great teachings and inspirations. Buddhism is always changing and evolving, otherwise there would be no "Mahayana" Buddhism at all (and even what is known as "Theravada" Buddhism is the product of thousands of years of changes, such that some say it is even newer than the Mahayana!) Many somebodies, known and unknown, kept this Buddha way aflame for generation after generation, and brought it out of India, so we celebrate them even if we have lost their exact identity, and it is probably whole groups of people.

The Koans are known to be largely "skits" created after the deaths of the people in the stories, most unlikely to be actual historical events, although some may be based on actual events. Most evolved and were polished or greatly redone (and some created whole hog) centuries after the events said to be depicted. This is now well known to historians for most of the major Koans (e.g., LINK). Even so, they contain those same TRUTHS. Yes, there were often sect politics and rivalries involved, or just different teachers changing history or the interpretation of legends to suit their own view of the teachings. That does not matter so much if they are good interpretations and teachings.

I do not think that Dahui actually destroyed the Blue Cliff Record by burning it. It think that the reference is figurative, in that he "destroyed" the Blue Cliff when he got away from its relative wordiness and the "explanations" of the teachings within it (which we will look at) in favor of Dahui's "Koan Introspection Zazen" method. The Blue Cliff had ups and downs in popularity through the centuries, but has been popular most of the time. I don't think that the content was ever totally lost.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Ramine]

It was interesting to read the short history of Ch'an/Zen but I was struck mainly by how humans need to mythologize and tell a good story, like the one about Master Dogen copying the BCR overnight to bring it to Japan, in some kind of heroic act. To me that story mainly highlights that the text should be viewed as an important and authoritative teaching by linking it directly to Dogen. Stories don't have to be factual to make a point or relate some kind of truth. I think Koans are like that as well. Like Jundo said earlier...

The Koans are known to be largely "skits" created after the deaths of the people in the stories, most unlikely to be actual historical events, although some may be based on actual events. Most evolved and were polished or greatly redone (and some created whole hog) centuries after the events said to be depicted. This is now well known to historians for most of the major Koans (e.g., LINK). Even so, they contain those same TRUTHS. Yes, there were often sect politics and rivalries involved, or just different teachers changing history or the interpretation of legends to suit their own view of the teachings. That does not matter so much if they are good interpretations and teachings. zz0.ttxl189zbvrzz

I think that for me reading a koan is largely about trying to get in the same frame of mind as whoever wrote it, trusting that indeed there is a point to grasp (or not-grasp). Sometimes I get it (or so I think...) and sometimes I'm lost. I wonder how much we lose by not being able to relate to the cutural references, puns, etc.

I am looking forward to the first case.

Ramine

Sat & Lah

[Koriki]

I have owned the Blue Cliff record for many years. It is good to finally open it! I have had some interesting experiences working with koans in the past and welcome further study. I found the introduction to be... tolerable. I did find this line interesting- "The Blue Cliff Record gained great popularity in a short time, so much so that Ta Hui, an influential successor of Yuan Wu sometimes called the second coming of Lin Chi, destroyed the printing blocks because he observed that enthusiasm for eloquence and beauty of expression was hindering people from directly experiencing enlightenment on their own."
I do get somewhat frustrated at times with the "poetic" nature of Zen and it's hesitation in spelling things out a bit more clearly. But this line points to something I had read recently about essentially leaving some room for the student to experience the awakening instead of explaining it so precisely that it gets in the way of them experiencing it for themselves. I like koans for this. They are kind of like ear worms that seem to work towards different meanings over time.

Gassho,

Koriki
s@lah

[Kotei]

Hello,
regarding the foggy lineage legends and "truth" in the ancient stories, I really like how John R. Mc Rae puts it in the first two of his Rules of Zen Studies:

- It's not true, and therefore it's more important.
The contents of Zen texts should not be evaluated using a simpleminded criterion of journalistic accuracy, that is, "Did it really happen?"
For any event or saying to have occurred would be a trivial reality involving a mere handful of people at one imagined point in time, which would be overwhelmed by the thousand of people over the centuries who were involved in the creation of Zen legends. The mythopoeic creation of Zen literature implies the religious imagination of the Chinese people, a phenomenon of vast scale and deep significance.

- Lineage assertions are as wrong as they are strong
Statements of lineage identity and "history" were polemical tools of self-assertions, not critical evaluations of chronological fact according to some modern concept of historical accuracy. To the extent that any lineage assertion is significant, it is also a misrepresentation; lineage assertions that can be shown to be historically accurate are also inevitably inconsequential as statements of religious identity.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Shujin]

I'm really curious to see where the Blue Cliff Record leads me. It was one of the first Zen books I heard of as a teenager, but I never gave it any serious thought. I appreciate Cleary's exhortation to practice with these cases within the confines of our own lives. They are not artifacts to be worshipped. Although our Sung ancestors left these gifts for us to consider, they were never meant to be static history. As these koans rekindled the way seeking mind through history, may they do the same for us.

Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

[Chikyou]

I read through the introduction and found it really fascinating (and it's clear that there is at least some, almost definitely A LOT OF myth - forgive my irreverence, when I read the part about Dogen copying the Blue Cliff in one night I immediately thought of Santa Clause! ). Anyway, I can't wait to jump in!

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō