Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

[Hoyu]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Jundo wrote:
I combined a couple of suggested names for the film club. How is the "Through Light and Shadows Film Club" ? Sometimes we go "beyond", but also Dogen reminded us that Wisdom-Compassion can shine right through too!

I like it! I'll cast my vote as a yes for this name.

I also made a little sub-forum for the film club within the book club area.

Thank you.


Hi All,
Jundo has put together a few suggestions. I do believe there were a few others floating around out there as well. If we could get them all together we could have a proper vote. Also we should decide on a few other issues like how long to let the current movie run before moving to the next and a date on when to discuss whichever our next film will be.

Gassho,
John

[Kyonin]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Okay, I think life just got really crazy for a lot of us recently and I am slowly catching up with a lot of the posts.

And the one I was really looking forward to was the Film Watching Club.

Like the title says, the first movie is Zen, the life of Dogen, directed by Takahashi Banmei.

What can I say. I simply loved it. I had no idea this movie was out there and I just watched it and there are a lot of things to think about.

First of all, Dogen gave Chan Buddhism a whole different approach. Shikantaza means "just sit" and he managed that extremely well. The performance by Nakamura Kantaro was outstanding. I enjoyed how Dogen stablished and managed all his relationships all through the end of his life.

From the start to end, I was deeply touched by all the "chapters" in Dogen's life.

The music is beautiful. Here's a sample:

[youtube]

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Now for the Buddhist part. Every scene is a teaching and an inspiration. The Shikantaza philosophy on the movie helped me understand (again) why I sit and why this is the path I chose to follow.

The Orin story arch was beautiful too. She rebuilt herself from the mud to become the first nun and I was specially moved by her. She had to forgive herself, accept her past and let go of her attachments in order to study under Dogen's teachings.

Don't we all need to do just that?

Question for Jundo and Taigu: I had read a pretty similar story like Orin's. But didn't that happened to the Buddha? Wasn't the girl's name Kisa Gotami?

Zen is a wonderful movie that inspires me to keep on walking this path.

A deep and sincere bow to the people that made possible this movie and thanks to Shokai for suggesting it.

[Hoyu]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Chocobuda wrote:
Okay, I think life just got really crazy for a lot of us recently and I am slowly catching up with a lot of the posts.

And the one I was really looking forward to was the Film Watching Club.

Hi Choco,
Good to see you were able to find a copie of this movie! I'm glad you are able to join in considering you were one of the first few people to really get the idea for this club going!

Chocobuda wrote:
Question for Jundo and Taigu: I had read a pretty similar story like Orin's. But didn't that happened to the Buddha? Wasn't the girl's name Kisa Gotami?

Here is the story you are thinking of which Jundo Sensei posted in another thread:

When her son died just a few years into his life, Kisa Gotami went mad with grief. A wise person saw her condition and told her to find the Buddha, who had the medicine she needed. Kisa Gotami went to the Buddha, and asked him to give her the medicine that would restore her dead child to life. The Buddha told her to go out and find a mustard seed from a house where nobody had died. Kisa Gotami was heartened, and began her search, going door to door. Everyone was willing to give her a mustard seed, but every household she encountered had seen at least one death. She understood why the Buddha had sent her on this quest. She returned to the Buddha, who confirmed what she had realized: "There is no house where death does not come."

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Question for Jundo and Taigu: I had read a pretty similar story like Orin's. But didn't that happened to the Buddha? Wasn't the girl's name Kisa Gotami?

Hi,

Yes, the story was actually from an old tale about the Buddha, found here ...

viewtopic.php?p=19611#p19611

You know, surprisingly little is known about the details of Dogen's actual life by historians. They have had to piece together some facts from his writings, but there is really only a sketch of events. In fact, nobody really knows the details of his parents identity or his mother's death, why he left Kyoto for the "middle of no where" of snowy Echizen, or the day to day events among the monks at Eiheiji (such as why Dogen had that one monk thrown out), or if there was a female nun there like Orin (Dogen did have some female students, some ordained, outside Eiheiji, but we know very little about them or who they were). Nobody knows almost anything about why he went to see the Shogun in Kamakura or what happened there (the story about Dogen almost being killed by the troubled Shogun is purely imagination). Nobody really knows 90% of the details of the story in that movie, which is simply the screen writers' supposition (of course).

In later centuries, other biographers of Dogen began to add details to his biography as the centuries past ... but in almost all cases, just there own imaginings. In fact, some very accepted stories about Dogen are not historical. An excellent book is by the scholar Steve Heine, called "Did Dogen Go To China?" (The title is "tongue in cheek", and while it is sure that Dogen went to China ... we just are not sure of so many details of what happened there). Please read the Preface to the book here, on page v, entitled "A Fisherman's Dream" ...

http://www.amazon.com/Did-Dogen-Go-Chin ... 0195305922

Part of the book (focused on the years in China, not his later career) is available as an online essay here ...

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... China.html

But, with religious stories ... do the facts matter? Or, better said, there are Truths expressed even in fanciful legends.

Gassho, J

[Dosho]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

But, with religious stories ... do the facts matter? Or, better said, there are Truths expressed even in fanciful legends.

Do the facts matter? When it comes to Dogen, who has been dead for hundreds of years and where a record of his life does not exist in print? Probably not. But when the figure in question has lived within the lifetime of my parents or even myself? Yes, I think it does. The story of Oskar Schindler is not religious per se, but when it comes to doing deeds which some would call "saintly" I personally think there is as much to be learned from the imperfections of an individual. Such "faults" are pushed to the side and often forgotten while the "perfections" of the individual are exaggerated.

I just sometimes wonder if people are less likely to do extraordinary things in their daily life if they have been taught that only extraordinary people are capable of such acts. And if they knew that Schindler was just an ordinary man who may have done the right thing for a less than perfect moral reason, perhaps more people would seek to seek alleviate the suffering of others rather than waiting for a messiah to do it for them.

Just a thought.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Kaishin]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Do the facts matter? When it comes to Dogen, who has been dead for hundreds of years and where a record of his life does not exist in print? Probably not. But when the figure in question has lived within the lifetime of my parents or even myself? Yes, I think it does. The story of Oskar Schindler is not religious per se, but when it comes to doing deeds which some would call "saintly" I personally think there is as much to be learned from the imperfections of an individual. Such "faults" are pushed to the side and often forgotten while the "perfections" of the individual are exaggerated.

And that's where we get hagiographies (thanks for teaching me that word, Shokai )

I just sometimes wonder if people are less likely to do extraordinary things in their daily life if they have been taught that only extraordinary people are capable of such acts.

A very interesting point!

[Hoyu]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Jundo wrote:
But, with religious stories ... do the facts matter? Or, better said, there are Truths expressed even in fanciful legends.

Jundo's words here reminded me of some questions I had from something that was posted on another thread. The topic of fake Buddha quotes came up. My first thought was if they have a profound message which is in line with the teachings, does it matter whether they were words directly uttered from the mouth of Buddha himself? As long as the message is one that gives hope or guidance should it be so quickly discarded once you scratch the surface only to find out they are "unauthentic"? I also thought of Jundo's lesson on Kannon where he says our arms are Kannon's arms. So too is our voice not the voice of the Buddha? Even the voice of the person who made up the quote they attributed to the Buddha? Perhaps there is a value in knowing the difference between what is "real" or "fake" but I just like Buddha quotes regardless

Gassho,
John

[Zen_Fire]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi,

we can't forget that Buddhism was a oral tradition for hundres of years before it became a written tradition. We have enough problems keeping the veracity of facts in the written form. I can't even imagine how different it is what we think we know about Buddha today from how he actually was. In the end, all we can do is admit that we have know way to know how Buddha, or Dogen for that matter, was, and use our good sense with the help of checks and balances from our sensible Sangha mates to live our Buddhahood.

Gassho,

Sunnyatta

[Jundo]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi,

we can't forget that Buddhism was a oral tradition for hundres of years before it became a written tradition. We have enough problems keeping the veracity of facts in the written form. I can't even imagine how different it is what we think we know about Buddha today from how he actually was. In the end, all we can do is admit that we have know way to know how Buddha, or Dogen for that matter, was, and use our good sense with the help of checks and balances from our sensible Sangha mates to live our Buddhahood.

Gassho,

Sunnyatta

As some may be aware ad nauseum ... one of my favorite topics ... (it touches on 'hagiography' as well):

I don't believe in Buddha (or Dogen) ... that's why I know Buddha (Dogen too)

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3673

Gassho, J

PS - A nice definition of 'hagiography' I sometimes cite:

A hagiography is a biography, usually of a saint or saintly person, and usually written to idealize their life or justify their sainthood. In other words, a hagiography is usually a positive presentation of a life, rather than an objective or critical biography. When using a hagiography as a research source, the purpose and style must be taken into consideration, as the writer probably omitted negative information and exaggerated or even created positive information about the subject of the hagiography. Lives of the saints are typically hagiographies.

[AlanLa]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Some very nice moments in the movie in how it integrates Buddha's and Dogen's teachings, and some rather silly moments in how it sets things up for the later story (his enlightenment, the Shogun going crazy, especially), so it was an okay movie. I agree with Fugen when he said it was a "tad too flowery." I suppose a zen movie that goes way over the top in places is itself a zen koan. Sit. Watch. Get on with life...

[Jundo]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Some very nice moments in the movie in how it integrates Buddha's and Dogen's teachings, and some rather silly moments in how it sets things up for the later story (his enlightenment, the Shogun going crazy, especially), so it was an okay movie. I agree with Fugen when he said it was a "tad too flowery." I suppose a zen movie that goes way over the top in places is itself a zen koan. Sit. Watch. Get on with life...

I touched on the movie, and it hagiographical (there's that word again!! ) elements, in the "Dogen" post for our book club today ...

viewtopic.php?p=55870#p55870

Gassho, J

[Mari]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Zen is one of my favorite movies. I've seen it quite a few times and never fail to tear up when he's holding the baby, and when the little girl is "protecting" the Buddha from the rain. I'm definitely not the weepy type when it comes to movies, but it is very touching. I'd say very human.