Shikantaza Symphony

[Shade]

Gassho,

Chukyo

ST

[Kiri]

My only quibble with some views of meditation is with the claim that "it is only real meditation, going well, when I am completely swept up in the music, forgetting myself." I don't think so.

So is it ok if I find it hard, really hard, to drop body and mind during zazen? Maybe I should trust that it's a 'skill' that will come with time?

Gassho, Kiri
Sat/Lah

[Tomás ESP]

So is it ok if I find it hard, really hard, to drop body and mind during zazen? Maybe I should trust that it's a 'skill' that will come with time?

Gassho, Kiri
Sat/Lah

That is a great question Kiri. I kind of have the same question. Are body and mind dropped at once, or is it something progressive?

[Shinshi]

This is probably not helpful, and it probably isn't clear but my thought is: Dropping body and mind is not something you do, it is something that happens. If you are striving to drop body and mind you are probably thinking about dropping body and mind. And if you are thinking during Shikantaza you are probably getting a bit off track. Just do Shikantaza - they way Jundo teaches us. Just settle into it. And I believe you will find that body and mind are dropped of their own accord. Probably for bit of time, and then they are back. Rinse and repeat.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Nengyoku]

It's like riding a bicycle for the first time. At some point your parent lets go and you are riding all by yourself, but it is only after you look back and realize you have done it that it is apparent. And then you mess it up in the excitement.
So you get on the bike again.

Gassho,
Nengyoku
Sat

[Jundo]

This is probably not helpful, and it probably isn't clear but my thought is: Dropping body and mind is not something you do, it is something that happens. If you are striving to drop body and mind you are probably thinking about dropping body and mind. And if you are thinking during Shikantaza you are probably getting a bit off track. Just do Shikantaza - they way Jundo teaches us. Just settle into it. And I believe you will find that body and mind are dropped of their own accord. Probably for bit of time, and then they are back. Rinse and repeat.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Yes, this dropping is not something that we pursue. Nor is it something that we run away from. In fact, dropping happens when we rest in perfect equanimity, and the little self is put out of a job.

Now, sometimes it is a softening of the borders of self and all the world, and sometimes it is a more radical dropping in which all differentiation of self and other, this thing and that, may fall away. Sometimes, over long practice, one may realizes that ones bones have become as soaked with this wisdom, gradually over time, as if one had passed through a waterfall in a moment. For others, it comes at once just as wet.

The Rinzai folks (and some in the mixed Rinzai-Soto) overemphasize these one time passing moments of Kensho. I believe that they miss the point. In our sitting, they come and they are wonderful but, if you examine closely the people who have had such experiences, they don't seem particularly wise or peaceful due to such experiences. In fact, they seem often as tightly wound and intensively pushing to repeat such experiences as before. In the Rinzai way ... if one pushes pushes pushes, winding oneself up like an overly taught spring ... there will be moments when all comes lose and unwound suddenly. Some drugs can also bring about similar experiences.

In Shikantaza, such moments come, sometimes deep and sometimes light, yet we experience that which is beyond measure and time.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Anchi]

Lovely! Thank you Jundo.


Deep bows

[Kiri]

Thank you Shinshi, thank you Jundo
Gassho, Kiri
Sat/Lah

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[Jundo]

That is a great question Kiri. I kind of have the same question. Are body and mind dropped at once, or is it something progressive?

I wrote this today partially in response to your question, Tomas,

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?19486-Shikantaza-as-Kensho

Gassho, J

STLah