Of Noise, Ear Plugs and Sensory Deprivation Tanks

[Ganshijue]

I practice in different situations outside also. I may go to a park and sit with my eyes completely open, staring straight ahead. Sometimes I will sit in the car in a busy shopping center parking lot. All these different situations with all their different sensory input. I just see it as intensifying my training.

gassho

Bryan

ST

[Jundo]

kerfuffle

No kerfuffle Paco. If you have medical need, then reduce the sound in whatever way is helpful.

But to the degree you can, also accept disturbances.

As well, even accept that sometimes we are feeling disturbed, and it is natural and okay.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Hello.

I am Autistic. I went ahead and mentioned it in this thread because it was in my podcast and sound is a particularly sensitive issue for me and many Autistic people. Those of us with sound sensitivity are hard-wired that way. There are brain scans of us that prove it. Our brains "hear" all sounds as equal, the person talking to us, the sink dripping, the light humming, the oven clicking, and we are not as able to focus on the "important" sound (example: someone speaking to us)like non-Autistics. (I also have touch sensitivity which explains the silly comfortable clothes I wear.) Too much sound can cause sound-sensitive Autistic people to have emotional meltdowns. And many of us have been told meditation is not good for us. For some Autistic people this may be true.

ps a good book on this is Umasking Autism by Devon Price.

As may be evident I am ok with a little "kerfuffle" ....I have read that Devon Price book and I believe that I am definitely "neurospicy" though not diagnosed. There is quite a number of us in Zen. Label or no label...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

What?



If he has autism and is especially sensitive to sound, then special measures may be needed.

On the other hand, even he might benefit from learning to accept the noise more, and to accept his autism too.

I even learn to accept you, Matt, although many might find you a disturbance. For me, I will call you just a "situation."

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Hello.

I am Autistic. I went ahead and mentioned it in this thread because it was in my podcast and sound is a particularly sensitive issue for me and many Autistic people. Those of us with sound sensitivity are hard-wired that way. There are brain scans of us that prove it. Our brains "hear" all sounds as equal, the person talking to us, the sink dripping, the light humming, the oven clicking, and we are not as able to focus on the "important" sound (example: someone speaking to us)like non-Autistics. (I also have touch sensitivity which explains the silly comfortable clothes I wear.) Too much sound can cause sound-sensitive Autistic people to have emotional meltdowns. And many of us have been told meditation is not good for us. For some Autistic people this may be true.

I made my post here mainly for other Autistic folk or those with similar issues. So yes, sometimes when I'm trying to get work done, or really need to concentrate or have been upset, I use my noise-canceling headphones. However this year, I've sat zazen daily and the need to use them has greatly diminished. Before this year, I would have needed them whenever the mowers and blowers arrived, now I don't even when sitting zazen. Occasionally, I will use them if I can't hear the audio from whatever I'm listening to or watching, but overall I am improving in this area. Which, given my neurotype and history is fairly impressive. I was only trying to offer a bit of a hopeful story to others like me. I didn't mean to spark a kerfuffle.

Gassho,
Paco
sat/lah

ps a good book on this is Umasking Autism by Devon Price.

What?

If he has autism and is especially sensitive to sound, then special measures may be needed.

On the other hand, even he might benefit from learning to accept the noise more, and to accept his autism too.

I even learn to accept you, Matt, although many might find you a disturbance. For me, I will call you just a "situation."

Yes but not all senses were created equal. I can cut the tags off my shirt so they don't irritate my neck...I can not read some peoples posts who I find irritating. But I cannot avoid hearing the people or things in the room with me.

It's interesting that for the Tibetans sound is the last sense that we lose. Which is why they recite the Bardo Thödol for 49 days after the person has died. Clearly death is not even a barrier to sound.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

PS: https://youtube.com/shorts/dlrS0fGXN...nPakGebDx3GZEt

[Jundo]

I don't assume anything when it comes to Jundo. I suppose it depends who he is talking to.

What?

But given that it was Guest who "restarted" this thread and knowing he is autistic and knowing that A well-known autism intervention at this point is noise cancelling headphones.

If he has autism and is especially sensitive to sound, then special measures may be needed.

On the other hand, even he might benefit from learning to accept the noise more, and to accept his autism too.

I even learn to accept you, Matt, although many might find you a disturbance. For me, I will call you just a "situation."

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Come on, Matt.. you know Jundo better than that. "Recline, sit in whichever way the body allows, do not be a posture-nazi" - he says those all the time. If anything, he might be too lenient when it comes to certain forms.

I don't assume anything when it comes to Jundo. I suppose it depends who he is talking to. But given that it was Guest who "restarted" this thread and knowing he is autistic and knowing that A well-known autism intervention at this point is noise cancelling headphones.

There is some literature to suggest that exposure therapy is good for many different types of neurodivergence and certain mental illnesses. But telling people this is pretty much the same as telling them to just "be the pain" when sitting full lotus.

My take is "If you feel have to ask for permission, the answer is probably no."

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

Hi Matt,

I've been around long enough to think (perhaps erroneously) that Jundo is saying something like, unless something is going to cause harm e.g. nerve damage from ones posture, one should try to accept what's happening with equanimity. So learning to sit with the background noise is good because we are accepting everything that comes up rather than pulling away or deliberately ignoring it. Sometimes I have to focus my attention somewhat on something specific (usually the weight of my body), if my mind is particularly racy but once it slows down a bit, I relax my attention again.


Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

Yep, that is what I say.

So you are against accommodations then? Guess I'll start sitting in full lotus again... Ill never forget how Harada Roshi looked at me when.......because of a wound on my foot I decided to make modifications to my waraji

If it is really causing you harm, then fix your shoes. If you are just fixated on your shoes, and they really don't cause harm, then the fixation is between your ears.

A lot of life in a monastic setting is to help one learn to drop aside one's personal likes and dislikes (好き嫌い). One accepts what is, even if your don't like it, even if a bit crazy (like wearing straw sandals in the 21st century.) A little foot discomfort may be good for one if one can learn thereby to accept it with equanimity. However, bleeding out and having your toes get gangrene is another story.

Capiche?

Gassho, J
stlah

[Bion]

So you are against accommodations then? Guess I'll start sitting in full lotus again... Ill never forget how Harada Roshi looked at me when.......because of a wound on my foot I decided to make modifications to my waraji (i took a boot insole and slit down the big toe and second toe and place it on the sandal). When Harada came around to inspect us, he looked down at my feet and then looked at me and sniffed....

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

Come on, Matt.. you know Jundo better than that. "Recline, sit in whichever way the body allows, do not be a posture-nazi" - he says those all the time. If anything, he might be too lenient when it comes to certain forms.

Gassho
sat lah

[Hoseki]

So you are against accommodations then? Guess I'll start sitting in full lotus again...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

Hi Matt,

I've been around long enough to think (perhaps erroneously) that Jundo is saying something like, unless something is going to cause harm e.g. nerve damage from ones posture, one should try to accept what's happening with equanimity. So learning to sit with the background noise is good because we are accepting everything that comes up rather than pulling away or deliberately ignoring it. Sometimes I have to focus my attention somewhat on something specific (usually the weight of my body), if my mind is particularly racy but once it slows down a bit, I relax my attention again.


Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

I very much disagree.

There may be a time, practicing behind a jet engine or in the middle of a burning building, that one should take action! These are dangerous and harmful to the body, so get up, move away, put on ear protection ... then resume sitting.

However, for other situations, always sit with/as what is. Let it be. Do not be disturbed in the heart, and then there is no disturbance.

If someone is disturbed by a fly, then the fly is disturbing. If not, then it is not disturbing. Likewise for practicing on a battlefield (if one has no choice but to be there), in an ambulance, on your death bed, in a hurricane (done that, practicing in the closet as the windows outside shook and broke), at a rock concert, next to a construction site, noisy neighbors, tv blaring downstairs ... any place and time.

So you are against accommodations then? Guess I'll start sitting in full lotus again... Ill never forget how Harada Roshi looked at me when.......because of a wound on my foot I decided to make modifications to my waraji (i took a boot insole and slit down the big toe and second toe and place it on the sandal). When Harada came around to inspect us, he looked down at my feet and then looked at me and sniffed....

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

When I was living in a 700sq ft space with my wife and then 10 yo and cat I absolutely used earbuds and absolutely paid close attention to my pulse and breathing.

Its not about having the "capacity" to drop or not drop the self. Its about finding innovative workarounds to ones life challenges.

I dont think headphones should be the default position, but its one way to deal with what is...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

I very much disagree.

There may be a time, practicing behind a jet engine or in the middle of a burning building, that one should take action! These are dangerous and harmful to the body, so get up, move away, put on ear protection ... then resume sitting.

However, for other situations, always sit with/as what is. Let it be. Do not be disturbed in the heart, and then there is no disturbance.

If someone is disturbed by a fly, then the fly is disturbing. If not, then it is not disturbing. Likewise for practicing on a battlefield (if one has no choice but to be there), in an ambulance, on your death bed, in a hurricane (done that, practicing in the closet as the windows outside shook and broke), at a rock concert, next to a construction site, noisy neighbors, tv blaring downstairs ... any place and time.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

This topic has been dealt with in classical music:

On August 29, 1952, David Tudor walked onto the stage of the Maverick Concert Hall, near Woodstock, New York, sat down at the piano, and, for four and a half minutes, made no sound. He was performing “4'33",’’ a conceptual work by John Cage. It has been called the “silent piece,” but its purpose is to make people listen. “There’s no such thing as silence,” Cage said, recalling the première. “You could hear the wind stirring outside during the first movement. During the second, raindrops began pattering the roof, and during the third people themselves made all kinds of interesting sounds as they talked or walked out.”

gassho

Sat Today

whoa Tairin like just posted that... am I trippin'?

well that was posted several years ago?

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

When I was living in a 700sq ft space with my wife and then 10 yo and cat I absolutely used earbuds and absolutely paid close attention to my pulse and breathing.

Its not about having the "capacity" to drop or not drop the self. Its about finding innovative workarounds to ones life challenges.

I dont think headphones should be the default position, but its one way to deal with what is...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

But sitting zazen with Bion and the sangha and the blowers, mowers and trimmers has actually helped my noise sensitivity some to where I notice it but I am not overwhelmed. So, I offer a gassho to the mowers, blowers and trimmers that I used to loathe (still frustrated they exist for environmental reasons) but have come to accept as part of life as it is when I sit.

"Disturbance" is usually not a situation outside you. The situation outside is just the situation. The "disturbance" is 100% your reaction between the ears to the situation. If one is not disturbed between the ears by a situation, the situation is not disturbing.

Of course, some situations are very hard not to be disturbed about. I would probably be quite disturbed for a bit if a bomb exploded near me, for example. However, in this practice, we learn and master how much control we actually have over the "volume control" of "disturbance" between our ears. We can learn to be not disturbed (or sometimes "disturbed-non-disturbed" ... disturbed yet not, all at once) much more, when we wish, through this practice.

See the lesson on "sound vs. noise" in the OP above.

Gassho, J
stlah