Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40270

    Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

    I APOLOGIZE FOR THE LENGTH OF THE FOLLOWING ... IT MAY TAKE SEVERAL LIFETIMES TO READ!

    Hi Ho,

    It's been a couple of weeks since our last "BIG Questions". But now fate has led us to the next which, though seemingly some of the trickiest, I find not so tricky at all ...

    What about KARMA?

    Mr. D asked ...

    The thing about Karma is this: I don't really see how the Buddhist belief in Karma is compatible with the possibility that the universe is random and unintended. Karma for me means that there are no 'coincidences' and nothing happens just 'by chance'. We find ourselves where we find ourselves and with certain people for a reason. Karmic relationships and patterns are at work, and maybe we even get exactly what we need... As such, if Karma is true then it would be a kind of proof against the idea that the universe is random and unintended. You can't believe in Karma AND consider the possibility that this is all random and unintended. This is to assume of course, that the Buddhist notion of Karma refers to more that mere materialistic determinism or mechanistic cause and effect: a cause yielding an inevitable effect which in turn acts as the cause of another inevitable effect and so on... But as far as I'm aware, this idea is usually supported by those who believe that there is only matter, and nothing else, and I would never have associated Buddhism with that sort of thing. And Karma always seemed to have more to it than that...

    ...

    Buddhism says that Ignorance and delusion bind us to the cycle of birth and death. As such, when one who hasn’t realised his/her true nature and remains in ignorance dies, they are subsequently reborn. But what happens to one who has realised their true nature in life, attained enlightenment , Satori...? What happens to a Buddha when their physical body disintegrates, if they are not reborn and they are egoless?
    In a nutshell, Karma means our volitional actions (which includes words and thoughts) are causes which have effects good and bad. Our lives are (in whole or part ... for there are other, non-Karmic causes too such as natural and environmental factors) the product of past Karmic causes, and our life contains the causes of future effects. Usually, this is coupled with a belief that our Karmic volitional actions in this life will help determine future rebirths.

    But the details of what that all entails, and exactly how the system works, can be rather fuzzy.

    The idea of Karma, and a belief in a rather mechanical system of rebirth (or reincarnation ... not quite the same thing, more about that in a moment) existed in Indian religion long before the time of the Buddha. What is more, it seems highly likely that Guatama Buddha himself believed in a rather mechanical system of rebirth resulting from Karma (Kamma in Pali). There is some small debate about this, because the Buddha's words were passed on as an oral tradition, and not written down for centuries after his death ... and because the Buddha often adapted his teachings to the ears of his listeners, and adapted many Hindu concepts (in order to attract Hindus to his ideas). However, it certainly seems hard to doubt that the Buddha himself taught a very mechanical, detailed system of rebirth ... and that Buddhists continued to believe as much ever since ... much as in the following system (explained by a teacher in a Vietnamese tradition)

    According to Buddhism if a human does not obtain nirvana or enlightenment, as it is known, the person cannot escape the cycle of death and rebirth and are inevitably be reborn into the 6 possible states beyond this our present life, these being in order from the highest to lowest;

    Heaven. In Buddhism there are 37 different levels of heaven where beings experience peace and long lasting happiness without suffering in the heavenly environment.

    Human life. In Buddhism we can be reborn into human life over and over, either wealthy or poor, beautiful or not so, and every state between and both as it it is served up to us. Anything can happen, as is found in human life and society all around us as we are familiar with in the day to day human world in is myriad of possibilities. What we get is a result of our Karma of what we have dragged with us from previous existences and how it manifests in our temporary present lives.

    Asura. A spiritual state of Demi-Gods but not the happy state experienced by the gods in the heavens above this state. The Demi-Gods are consumed with jealousy, because unlike humans, they can clearly see the superior situation of the gods in the heavens above them. They constantly compete and struggle with the gods due to their dissatisfaction with their desires from the others.

    Hungry Ghost. This spiritual realm of those who committed excessive amounts of evil deeds and who are obsessed with finding food and drink which they cannot experience and thus remain unsatisfied and tortured by the experience. They exhaust themselves in the constant fruitless searching.

    Animals. This realm is visible to humans and it is where spirits of humans are reborn if they have killed animals or have committed a lot of other evil acts. Animals do not have the freedom that humans would experience due to being a subject constantly hunted by humans, farmed and used in farming, also as beasts for entertainment.

    Hell. This realm is not visible to humans. It is a place where beings born there experience a constant state of searing pain and the various types of hell realms reads like a variety of horrific torture chambers. Those with a great deal of negative Karma can remain in such places for eons of time.




    In later Buddhist philosophy (not only popular belief), the details could become ... well, quite detailed (such as in these descriptions of Buddhist 'Hells'!

    * Arbuda – the "blister" Naraka. This is a dark, frozen plain surrounded by icy mountains and continually swept by blizzards. Inhabitants of this world arise fully grown and abide life-long naked and alone, while the cold raises blisters upon their bodies. The length of life in this Naraka is said to be the time it would take to empty a barrel of sesame seed if one only took out a single seed every hundred years.

    * Nirarbuda – the "burst blister" Naraka. This Naraka is even colder than the one above, and here the blisters burst open, leaving the beings' bodies covered with frozen blood and pus.

    * Sa?gh?ta – the "crushing" Naraka. This Naraka is also upon a ground of hot iron, but is surrounded by huge masses of rock that smash together and crush the beings to a bloody jelly. When the rocks move apart again, life is restored to the being and the process starts again. Life in this Naraka is 10,368*1010 years long.

    * Raurava – the "screaming" Naraka. Here beings run here and there looking for refuge from the burning ground. When they find an apparent shelter, they are locked inside it as it blazes around them, while they scream inside. Life in this Naraka is 82,944*1010 years long.


    The reason that this is said to be a system of "rebirth", and not "reincarnation", is based primarily on the very fine distinction that the Buddha denied an eternal "self" or "soul" that would pass on from life to life. Buddhist philosophers have struggled for generations, often bending over backwards, thus to explain how there can be a "you" which is reborn when there is no "you" ...

    Here are a couple of modern attempts, one from the London Buddhist Vihara ...

    The non-existence of a permanent soul or spirit that reincarnates from one life to another is fundamental to the Buddha’s teachings. A permanent soul cannot exist in the ever-changing, interdependent process of mind and matter which constitutes a living being. However, the momentum of accumulated kamma results in a new existence. The individual so born is neither the same nor different from the previous being. Buddhism, therefore, describes this process as ‘rebecoming’ or ‘rebirth’ in preference to reincarnation which implies a resurrection of the same entity. It is the force of one’s accumulated kamma which drives life onward from one existence to another. Only an enlightened being (arahant) creates no more kamma.



    The modern Theravada scholar Walpola Rahulan, in his book What the Buddha Taught (1959), asked,

    "If we can understand that in this life we can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self or Soul, why can't we understand that those forces themselves can continue without a Self or Soul behind them after the non-functioning of the body?

    "When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. ... Physical and mental energies which constitute the so-called being have within themselves the power to take a new form, and grow gradually and gather force to the full."


    Ideas of Karmic Rebirth have been just as present throughout the history of Ch'an/Zen Buddhism as well. It varied from teacher to teacher, but there is no reason to believe that Zen Buddhists of old believed less in Karmic Rebirth than other Buddhists. HOWEVER, the emphasis in Zen Buddhism on "living in this life, in the present moment" quickly began to make the question less important to Zen Practitioners. Be a good human being here and now, seek to do no harm now in this life ... and what happens after this life will take care of itself. As well, the pivot point of "birth and death" in right this moment, where birth and death are ever occurring ... and the place of realization and release from "birth and death" is right this moment too, right in this life now.

    Based thereon, many modern teachers (me included ... and may I burn in a hot Buddhist hell if wrong) do not find the question so important or central to Buddhist Practice.

    Now, don't get me wrong: I believe that our actions have effects, and I believe that we create "heavens" and "hells". I see people create "hells" within themselves all the time, and for those around them, by their acts of greed, anger and ignorance. .I see people who live in this world as "Hungry Ghosts", never satisfied. I also believe that we are reborn moment by moment by moment, so in that way ... we are constantly reborn, always changing (the "Jundo" who began writing this essay is not the same "Jundo" who will finish it). Futhermore, I believe that our actions will continue to have effects in this world long after this body is in its grave ... like ripples in a stream that will continue on endlessly.

    But what about those future lives, heavens and hells? Will I be reborn as an Asura or a cocker spaniel?

    My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

    If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

    And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.


    Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

    And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

    In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

    In closing, a couple of (more like 5) final notes ...

    Buddhists all through history, including Guatama himself, always spoke of our escape from the cycle of birth and death, heaven and hells ... and that largely involves emptiness, and tasting a realm beyond all such states. So, in that way, the Buddha himself implied and often directly said that "Karma" and "Rebirth" only exist so long as you see the world that way, and they each vanish when you pierce through them (for example, this from the Nibbana Sutta)

    There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object). This, just this, is the end of stress.



    Remember too that being "reborn" was never seen as a positive thing in Buddhism (despite how modern practitioners often want to "come back"), but was seen as something to be escaped!

    Second, even in the most mechanical of mechanical views of Karma, what is truly important is (not past causes) but our harmful and beneficial actions here and now, in this present life. We are not prisoners of Karma, but have great freedom in this moment to make our lives and the future. So, again, what is vital is the here and now.

    Third, on the question of why "bad things happen to good people" and such ... one Buddhist view has always been "because of their 'bad' past Karma". For example, this explanation of why so many folks died in the great Tsunami a few years ago ...

    To Ananda Guruge, former Sri Lankan ambassador to the United States who teaches at the Buddhist-affiliated University of the West in Rosemead, the Buddhist doctrine of karmic law, not random chance, determines who lives and dies in any disaster. The region suffered collective bad karma, he says, perhaps prompted by oppression, unjust war or other negative actions that invited the calamity.

    In Sri Lanka and Thailand, both majority Buddhist countries hit by the tsunami, people tend to believe that those who perished were paying the price of accumulated demerits in this life or past ones, Guruge said, while the survivors were reaping rewards.

    “Buddhist doctrine makes people responsible for their own fate,” said Guruge, whose own family in Sri Lanka largely survived. ...

    But he said such doctrines of cause and effect provide solace by empowering people to take corrective action. By doing good deeds, he said, people can improve their own futures and transfer their merits to deceased loved ones to help bring them a better rebirth.
    Leaders of various faith traditions have different interpretations of how such human suffering can occur under a benevolent God.



    However, another Buddhist view is that there is a perspective by which we can drop all thought of birth, death, Tsunami and victims, suffering and such. By that view, there are no "bad things" to happen to "good people" ... and no "people, for all is empty! This is a view that I often teach when asked about these questions.

    Fourth, even if the Buddha did have an incomplete, or even dead wrong, view on "birth and death" ... no harm to my Buddhist Practice. For me, Guatama Buddha was much like the Wright Brothers in a glider at Kitty Hawk, while now we can board a Boeing 777. I even say that maybe, just maybe, the Buddha was not infallible on every darn thing and, while he was 90% right in his proposals, he also had some klunkers and narrow ideas here and there (as fits a man who lived in a traditional, myth based society some 2500 years ago in ancient India). No matter, as that 90% he taught was so wondrous that I happily bow to him in gratitude.

    Fifth...

    What happens when we die? Some say that death is an illusion. How so? ... Why is it said that Satori destroys the fear of death?
    Yes, I see that death is an illusion anyway. So, the whole question is moot from that perspective. We'll talk about this more in our next edition of ...

    Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions !


    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-08-2014, 03:53 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40270

    #2
    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

    By the way ... rather off topic, but I just heard a great "Agnostics Gospel Song" on the radio ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj2UkQ9kLIE[/video]]
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • robert
      Member
      • Aug 2008
      • 88

      #3
      Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

      Oh wow. My favorite topic. Seriously. For those of us with a penchant for obsessing over insoluble questions, nothing beats this one! Thank you Jundo for giving us a good "roadmap" and great advice on not building heavens and hells in this world.

      I just wanted to make a couple of small observations...probably just venting my own internal struggles with the topic, heh. Anyway here goes. On the subject of randomness versus determinism, it seems to me that Buddhism is actually a bit ambiguous. It teaches that yes, there is an ultimate order to the universe, but we don't understand how it works. To understand this would require keeping track of the entire web of causes and conditions in multiple universes stretching back through infinite time. The law governing the order of things is karma, but the Buddha taught that the workings of karma are imponderable and anyone trying to figure them out risks going mad. So I think practically speaking, we can't really say Buddhism is either deterministic or non-deterministic.

      Secondly, since the traditional view holds that we accumulate karma over infinite lifespans, there's really no way to know why one person's karma happened to manifest in this life in the form of death-by-tsunami, while another person's manifested in the form of being a lucky survivor. Actually, according to this view all of us must have already experienced every form of suffering many times over. The lucky survivor this time may be the victim next time and vice versa. Or, to paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson, one day we're the shepherd and another day we're the tyranny of evil men. And one day we're that bug someone's aiming a spraycan at. The only thing we have control of in this terrifying scheme of things is our present-time action, i.e. planting them wholesome karma seeds in our ever-fertile alayas, transferring merit, and so on.

      Really hoping to read others' thoughts on the subject...

      Gassho,
      Rob
      Robert's website

      Comment

      • Longdog
        Member
        • Nov 2007
        • 448

        #4
        Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

        Thanks for that Jundo, as you know it's some thing that's got my head in a whizz from time to time after hearing some very mechanical and literal views of karma and re-incarnation talked about by a senior monk of the OBC. Interestingly when I asked others of the same order they obviously didn't see it his way but were very diplomatic about their answers.

        Part of the problme must be there there is no 'Buddhist View' as such just lots of ideas around a theme and as we know the idea-l and actual aren't necessarily the same. My experience certainly supports my creating my own 'heaven and hell' here on earth in this life now depending on my life and how I react circumstances and the choices I make/made.

        I find the talk made of peoples misfortune, be it in tsunami's, disabilities, or whatever to be pretty distasteful and not helpful to Buddhism and possibly not even Buddhist thinking (seems sadly lacking in compassion). Having said that it also shows that no matter what, the human being has a truley fantastic potential when you see how many people overcome tremdous difficulties they are born with, pity no all humans use there potential to a more positive end.

        The rest of your life starts now, and now and now...... so do good, good for others and cease from evil

        In gassho, Kev
        [url:x8wstd0h]http://moder-dye.blogspot.com/[/url:x8wstd0h]

        Comment

        • Bansho
          Member
          • Apr 2007
          • 532

          #5
          Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

          Hi Jundo,

          Hey, that's a beautiful summary, I wouldn't change a word. Thank you.

          Gassho
          Ken
          ??

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40270

            #6
            Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

            Originally posted by robert
            I just wanted to make a couple of small observations.... On the subject of randomness versus determinism, it seems to me that Buddhism is actually a bit ambiguous.
            Nishijima Roshi, in the book I translated with him a few years back, had a pretty good section on this: How we can be bound by causes, yet have great freedom. I think it is as good a solution as one will ever get to the old "free will vs. determinism" dilemma, for any armchair philosophers out there.

            If you are interested in the subject, here is what he wrote, which (in my free will, due to endless causes and conditions ) I have decided to slightly abridge:



            21. CONTRADICTIONS IN HUMAN FREEDOM


            Sekishin: [If] I recall from our recent discussions, I think it was said by you that human beings are bound hard and fast, top to bottom, by the ‘Law of Cause & Effect’ …..

            Gudo: Yes, that is right. The perspective of the ‘Law of Cause & Effect’ is that our every action, without exception, has its origin in a priori causes stemming from our actions, as well as environmental and other factors which occurred in the past.

            Sekishin: But if that is the case, I believe that there are some strange implications. For example, if we posit that we are so firmly bound by ‘Cause & Effect,’ by a priori causes, then we human beings truly lack freedom of action, freedom of choice and free will. And if that is so, [free choice] loses all real meaning … What was the means [in Buddhism] to resolve the contradiction?

            Gudo: That means of resolution was found in a concept of the ‘instantaneousness of the universe.’

            Sekishin: The ‘instantaneousness of the universe?’ ….. What is that?’

            Gudo: If I were to describe in a very few words the meaning of the ‘instantaneousness of the universe,’ I would say this: ‘Each and all of that which exists in this world in which we reside arises and take places moment by moment, all while vanishing and passing away moment by moment.’

            Sekishin: That seems like a rather strange idea …..

            Gudo: Well, if we look at it from our ordinary, common sense viewpoints ….. it could be seen as strange. However, if we look at it from a Buddhist perspective, we see that the idea is straight on the mark as a statement of Reality, and constitutes one of the pillars of Buddhist thought.

            Sekishin: Might I trouble you to explain it in a way that may be easier to understand?

            Gudo: [The] one and only time in which we can live is in this present. Yet, this ‘present’ in time is continuously, moment by moment, but the future becoming the present as the present turns into the past ….. Thereby, this time which is the ‘present’ can never be but the continuous ‘moment to moment.’

            If we think from a common sense view, we human beings feel, in some vague manner, that we are existing somewhere in an expanse of time, at a point on a ‘time line,’ stretching from the past into the present connecting to the future. However, in our daily lives as human beings, if we try to think realistically about the situation, we are not living in some expanse of time stretching from the past into the present and connecting to the future. Instead, we must perceive that we are ever, always living just in this present, and nowhere else. We are living in the moment which is this very present that arises and passes away, in each smallest instant. And because this very time in which we are living is this moment, this very instant which is the present that arises and passes away moment by moment, when we hold up this world in which we live against such a vision of time, we must see that this world too, and all this world contains, arises and passes away, comes and vanishes moment by moment, instant by instant.

            Sekishin: I see….. This is something that we usually do not realize in our daily life, but when you state it in such manner, I see how we could think in that way.

            Gudo: Certainly, it is not something that we become aware of easily in our day-to-day lives, but this instantaneous world that I have described is the world in which we are actually living. And this idea of the nature of the world constitutes the Buddhist concept of the ‘instantaneousness of the universe,’ in Japanese ….. setsuna-shoumetsu. The word ‘setsuna’ derives from the Sanskrit term ‘kshana,’ an extremely small measure of time which we might refer to, in modern language, as ‘an instant,’ ‘a moment.’

            Sekishin: But how does this concept of the ‘instantaneousness of the universe’ serve to settle the contradictions regarding human freedom ... and the idea of the ‘Law of Cause & Effect?’

            Gudo: With regard to that matter, Master Dogen, in the Hotsu-Bodaishin chapter of the Shobogenzo for example, stated such ideas as, ‘If all things did not arise and vanish instantaneously, bad done in the previous instant would not depart. If bad done in the previous instant had not yet departed, good of the next instant could not be realized in the present.’ Namely, in this very world in which we live, precisely because it is arising and passing away, coming and going moment by moment ….. the good of the present moment can occur despite the bad which occurred in the moment before. The reason that it is possible for the good of the present moment to occur despite the bad which occurred in the moment before is just because this world is arising and passing away, coming and vanishing moment by moment, instant by instant. In other words, the events and circumstances of the moment before fade, thereby clearing space for the events of the current moment to happen …. If circumstances did not change moment by moment, the world would be frozen and static. Thus, the freedom of action which we possess in the present moment can be sought in the fact that the time which is the present is an instantaneous existence.

            Let us imagine that we are standing atop a place as thin and narrow as the blade edge of the sharpest razor ….. Just as we would then have the freedom to fall to the left or to fall to the right, the time of the present which is the stage for all our actions, the one and only foundation for our lives, is also a momentary existence of the thinnest and narrowest width, whereby ….. although we are bound within the world of reality, the world of actions ….. yet, we are free, and although we are free ….. yet are we bound.

            Sekishin-san, have you ever heard, as one term representative of Buddhist thought, the phrase ‘shogyoumujou,’ meaning the impermanence, the transitory nature of all worldly phenomena? It means that all our various actions are instantaneous existences, not possessing any lasting nature. Such thinking is the same as the idea of the ‘instantaneousness of the universe,’ but viewed from its other side …… meaning that our actions in the present, precisely because they are impermanent and transitory ….. are free yet fully bound by the past, and while fully bound by the past ….. yet are we free.
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Rev R
              Member
              • Jul 2007
              • 457

              #7
              Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

              Thanks Jundo!

              Now, don't get me wrong: I believe that our actions have effects, and I believe that we create "heavens" and "hells". I see people create "hells" within themselves all the time, and for those around them, by their acts of greed, anger and ignorance. .I see people who live in this world as "Hungry Ghosts", never satisfied. I also believe that we are reborn moment by moment by moment, so in that way ... we are constantly reborn, always changing (the "Jundo" who began writing this essay is not the same "Jundo" who will finish it). Futhermore, I believe that our actions will continue to have effects in this world long after this body is in its grave ... like ripples in a stream that will continue on endlessly.
              Pretty much what I wanted to say so I'll just quote it for emphasis.

              Something you mentioned that I would like to take a single step further:
              What is more, it seems highly likely that Guatama Buddha himself believed in a rather mechanical system of rebirth resulting from Karma (Kamma in Pali). There is some small debate about this, because the Buddha's words were passed on as an oral tradition, and not written down for centuries after his death ... and because the Buddha often adapted his teachings to the ears of his listeners, and adapted many Hindu concepts (in order to attract Hindus to his ideas).
              That is an interesting point. Even if we could prove that what survives as the written version of the Buddha's teachings is exactly what was spoken by him, there is no way to know what his intent was. Was it literal? Was it metaphorical? Was it sometimes one way and sometimes the other? How do you tell the difference?

              A little too much speculation for my taste.

              The really interesting thing is that the Way works in both the literal and metaphorical cases. What we believe really has no bearing. If we cultivate wisdom, live ethically, and develop concentration right here and right now it has effects in this life and accumulates merit for a "better" rebirth. To an extent it's a win/ win situation.

              but...

              As you also mentioned "rebirth" is not what we are looking for. We engage in practice to break free of the cycle of death and rebirth. It seems to be kinda like picking a lock. Who made the lock, where it was made, and the process by which it was made is irrelevant; what becomes important is figuring out how the tumblers operate so we can jiggle our hairpin properly to open it.

              Then we realize that there never was a lock and have a good laugh over our own stupidity.
              :lol:

              Some nonsense from a fool,
              R

              Comment

              • Dojin
                Member
                • May 2008
                • 562

                #8
                Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

                Jundo thank you so much for this.

                i can think of any thing to add or take away from what you said.

                Gassho, D.
                I gained nothing at all from supreme enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called supreme enlightenment
                - the Buddha

                Comment

                • robert
                  Member
                  • Aug 2008
                  • 88

                  #9
                  Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  Nishijima Roshi, in the book I translated with him a few years back, had a pretty good section on this: How we can be bound by causes, yet have great freedom. I think it is as good a solution as one will ever get to the old "free will vs. determinism" dilemma, for any armchair philosophers out there.

                  If you are interested in the subject, here is what he wrote, which (in my free will, due to endless causes and conditions ) I have decided to slightly abridge:
                  [/quote]

                  Thank you, Jundo. Enjoyed reading this. Even without an armchair.

                  Happy holidays!

                  Rob
                  Robert's website

                  Comment

                  • Borsuk
                    Member
                    • Oct 2008
                    • 41

                    #10
                    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

                    Thanks Jundo and others. Really fascinating read. Had me glued to the monitor.

                    The topic of free-will Vs determinism was one that greatly interested me a few years ago. It's an incredibley subtle topic. However, the main obstacle to understanding that I see now in Western philosophy is the assumption in the debate of a separate, objectively existing 'I'. This is, of course, an assumption that Buddhism birngs into question. But to be honest, it doesn't really interest me to explore Buddhist philosophy to try and find a solution. One might come up with a pretty good theory and feel pretty happy with it but it would still be full of assumptions and speculation.

                    The word 'if' bothers me. I feel concerned with what we can really know. Perhaps the nature of freedom is something that can be at least a little iluminated through a direct perception of reality...

                    That's all I feel able to say right now. Don't want to go cross-eyed! I'll let what I've read sink in and the most relevant points to me will surely manifest themselves of their own accord in due time. No need to force it.

                    Thanks again.

                    Gassho,
                    David

                    Comment

                    • AlanLa
                      Member
                      • Mar 2008
                      • 1405

                      #11
                      Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI

                      A few thoughts:

                      A book I have said that this moment is as perfect as can be. That little profundity has gotten me through lots of times, good and bad.

                      Research shows that about 50% of our behavior, all behavior, can be attributed to our genes. A lot of the remaining 50% is determined by our environment (physical, social, historical, etc.). So we behave based on what our genes tell us and what the environment made us and is still making us. Let's just say this adds up to 99%, which leaves 1% free will. But what a BIG 1%, right!!! A lot can be done with a 1% solution.

                      I like to think that my life right now, this moment, as a point. Everything in my life brought me to this perfect point, and whatever free will I choose to act on in this perfect point in time will lead to everything in my (and others) life in the future. Picture two V's on top of each other with the bottom one inverted. That intersecting point between the two V's is me (you) now at this point in time. The bottom inverted V is all life's stuff that brought you to this point, and that top V is all the stuff that is going to happen as a result of what happens in that point.

                      Let me try again. Karma = genes + environment + free will. All that got me to this point is karma past, what I do now is karma present, and the effects of what I do now are karma future.
                      AL (Jigen) in:
                      Faith/Trust
                      Courage/Love
                      Awareness/Action!

                      I sat today

                      Comment

                      • Seiryu
                        Member
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 620

                        #12
                        Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

                        Wow what a topic! thanks for that!!
                        Humbly,
                        清竜 Seiryu

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                        • Saijun
                          Member
                          • Jul 2010
                          • 667

                          #13
                          Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

                          Hello friends,

                          Don't know how I missed this topic (Thanks to unofficial samurai for replying to it!)

                          I, in my overly simple view of things, have always thought that Karma is just intentional action, Vipaka is just the result. If one 'does' good Karma, then one is creating (in both self and others) the conditions for future good actions. If one 'does' bad Karma, one is creating the conditions for future bad actions.

                          Like the recent talk about anger in the Jukai forum: if one gives in to anger, identifies with anger, s/he subtly create the conditions for anger to arise in him/her. If, though, s/he recognizes anger for what it is, understands it, and moves on, conditions are created that give rise to greater understanding.

                          And I think it's important to remember that the Buddha spoke of the practice as "Karma leading to the end of Karma:" gradually, as we learn to react more and more skillfully, we gradually see through the illusion of a separate self, and eventually, finally, the whole system collapses (or so I understand it).

                          Hopefully someone will be able to show where I've got it right, and where I've got it wrong.

                          Metta and Gassho,


                          Perry
                          To give up yourself without regret is the greatest charity. --RBB

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                          • Geika
                            Treeleaf Unsui
                            • Jan 2010
                            • 4983

                            #14
                            Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

                            After reading this I thread, I wonder why I am so comfortable with all of these ideas... shouldn't I be picking a side? No, lol, but I usually do. I keep visualizing those hells, especially the one where one is crushed for thousands of years.
                            求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                            I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                            Comment

                            • doogie
                              Member
                              • Feb 2008
                              • 77

                              #15
                              Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

                              There is a notion. That we (whatever "we" are) are like children. Spun off of something greater. Call it God, the Source, the Tao, whatever. We return lifetime after lifetime to grow more fully into what we are. That is, what we are capable of being. We do this by working through karma. If I kill a man in this life, perhaps I return in another to be killed so that I experience the consequence. Not as retribution, but as a tool to learn and to grow. Eventually we will have learned all that this place can teach us and we move on.

                              In this way, a world of suffering isn't a prison to be escaped. It is a school in which to learn. Seen thusly, being aware of one's student status isn't so important, except in certain cases. Knowing in one's bones that this is so could make one live more fully (even rightly), but again it's not really necessary. Where the knowledge could come in handy is if one is stuck. Or if one is denying all the fruits of life and all the myriad possibilities for growth through interpersonal experiences and cloistering themselves away, locking themselves inside their own head as they search for the meaning of life. It could also be useful if one is constantly making the same mistakes lifetime after lifetime.

                              In this way, no experience is a bad experience, as every experience holds the possibility for growth.
                              'Judge a man not by his answers, but by his questions.' Voltaire

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