Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IV (Random Universe?)

[Jundo]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IV

But when Suzuki Roshi or any religious figure of any creed says something like the following, well, they are either guessing or going on faith ...

This is the key point that I have been wondering about all along. As you are aware, one of the reasons I started practising Zazen is that I have always had a sense that the universe has some kind of pattern or principle, and I believed that I could deepen that sense and become directly aware of it through Zazen. Perhaps misguided to use Zazen as a means to an end... [emphasis added]

But Zazen DOES allow us to taste that the universe has some profound pattern or principle, and allows us to deepen that sense and become directly aware of it.

That pattern or principle is the way things are, how things go, how we go too ('cause its all just us and us all).

Moon rises at night, because that is what the moon does. The sun each morning from the east ... the world spins and the wind blows ... because that is what sun, world and wind do. Human beings live human lives, because that is what humans do. And all is connected.

Both Suzuki Roshi and I (and all Zen folks I can recall through history) believe that (to quote Suzuki Roshi), "There is something ... always prepared for taking some particular form, and it has some rules, or theory, or truth in its activity.This is called Buddha nature, or Buddha himself.. There is an order to this universe, it seems to me, and that order somehow cooked up the moon and stars, burning sun, this world in its orbit, the wind and rain and you and me (no simple recipe). I truly believe this, and think it most unlikely that I should be alive now to have this lovely conversation with you were it a truly chaotic universe (and even though it can often be messy). Quite the contrary, much groundwork was required. Something seemingly went to a lot of trouble to allow us life and all needed to support our lives.

But, David, for most Zen folks I know, the question thus becomes "if I have this life, as rare and precious as that seems, what am I to do with it"? And the answer to that question becomes "live it, and live it artfully". If something went to all the trouble to place you in a rowboat, oar in hand ... I guess you are supposed to row row row, sometimes drift drift drift.

AND (and this is the part that seems to confuse you) --if-- we are wrong, and our spider senses are wrong, and if there is no "pattern or principle" and only chaos ... THEN what should we do? Well. "live life, and live it artfully" .... row row row, drift drift drift.

(But if you ask me what I taste ... I taste that we were placed in this darn rowboat, oar in hand, by something that wants us to do the following: row row row, drift drift drift. If there is a "purpose" to life, oar in hand, that's the purpose. So, that is what I do).

Now, I think what also confuses you is that we do not spell out all the details of what is going on ... god's name, his favorite color, his mother's name, her favorite flower (those are the parts that most religions, some forms of Buddhism included, start to make up ... and where it all gets rather fanciful). Well, let me ask you this: If you go to the theatre and enjoy a play, do you need to know the name of the lighting director, the actors' birthdays, the material that the curtains are made of ... even the name of the author? No, you just enjoy the play!

We know there is a play, sense it was written with us in mind as spectators. That's enough to know. So, ENJOY THE SHOW!

I think that, since I have an oar in my hand, I was meant to row. If you were to press me, I would say that it is no accident, not in the least, that I am in a boat, alive, self-aware, with an oar in hand. In other words, since we are alive, I think that we were placed here to live, we were meant to live. I feel that in my heart. So, I row and row.

Would you say that Zen practice has nurtured that feeling in your heart/that sense?

Yes

... I should ask my 'higher self'... we are all unique each of us has a different purpose ... If we are not our minds and thoughts we must be the reality beyond thought and mind. Some talk of the the 'silent watcher' of the mind... the 'transcendent witness'. This could be unmanifested Buddha Nature, pure consciousness itself... pure presence, pure awareness. Perhaps this pure awareness is the eternal ground of existence of everything that exists...

Our Zen perspective may be rather unique among so-called 'Eastern Philosophies'. That's because, while we think David needs to see the reality "beyond thought" ... we think David should soon get back to being David. David is "David's Higher Self", just this ordinary mind and life. In other words, taste and experience that you are the river ... but don't drown in it. Instead, get back to rowing.

If there is a "Transcendant Witness, Pure Awareness", then probably 'That' wants you to get on with the trip you have been sent upon.

The thing about Karma is this:

I promise to get to the subject of Karma shortly. Now, there's a Pandora's Box!



Gassho, Jundo

[Borsuk]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IV

But when Suzuki Roshi or any religious figure of any creed says something like the following, well, they are either guessing or going on faith ...

This is the key point that I have been wondering about all along. As you are aware, one of the reasons I started practising Zazen is that I have always had a sense that the universe has some kind of pattern or principle, and I believed that I could deepen that sense and become directly aware of it through Zazen. Perhaps misguided to use Zazen as a means to an end...

I think that, since I have an oar in my hand, I was meant to row. If you were to press me, I would say that it is no accident, not in the least, that I am in a boat, alive, self-aware, with an oar in hand. In other words, since we are alive, I think that we were placed here to live, we were meant to live. I feel that in my heart. So, I row and row.

Would you say that Zen practice has nurtured that feeling in your heart/that sense?

In any case, the practise of Zazen just seems to be a wonderful thing. Whether or not it answers questions, one of things I've noticed is that it gives one a greater sense of freedom and strength to just express one's self (or lack thereof) in the moment and be more authentic. That's joyful

Some of the people I've spoken to about these 'big' questions have expressed the idea that I should ask myself. One person told me that I should ask my 'higher self'... What is the 'higher self' and how do you ask it? I suppose it could be what's left when you drop away body and mind... the ego... The person told me that my 'higher self' already knows... Another couple of people have said that as we are all unique each of us has a different purpose, and so again you have to ask yourself... You already know it. Hmm, I don't know about all that, but I do have a growing sense that ultimately there may be no objective answers to any of these type of questions and that I will have to take the responsibility to find my own answers.

I realise that what I should do is stop speculating about what's left when body and mind are dropped, and actually drop them and find out! If we are not our minds and thoughts we must be the reality beyond thought and mind. Some talk of the the 'silent watcher' of the mind... the 'transcendent witness'. This could be unmanifested Buddha Nature, pure consciousness itself... pure presence, pure awareness. Perhaps this pure awareness is the eternal ground of existence of everything that exists... As you can see, I'm way beyond speculation :lol:

The thing about Karma is this: I don't really see how the Buddhist belief in Karma is compatible with the possibility that the universe is random and unintended. Karma for me means that there are no 'coincidences' and nothing happens just 'by chance'. We find ourselves where we find ourselves and with certain people for a reason. Karmic relationships and patterns are at work, and maybe we even get exactly what we need... As such, if Karma is true then it would be a kind of proof against the idea that the universe is random and unintended. You can't believe in Karma AND consider the possibility that this is all random and unintended. This is to assume of course, that the Buddhist notion of Karma refers to more that mere materialistic determinism or mechanistic cause and effect: a cause yielding an inevitable effect which in turn acts as the cause of another inevitable effect and so on... But as far as I'm aware, this idea is usually supported by those who believe that there is only matter, and nothing else, and I would never have associated Buddhism with that sort of thing. And Karma always seemed to have more to it than that...

Gassho,
David

[Borsuk]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IV

Thanks, Jundo. What a lovely open response

Mmm... much to ponder.. but it's gone two in the morning and I need my beauty sleep. :wink:

Looking forward to continuing this chinwag soon!

Gassho,
David

[Tb]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IV

Hi.

What happened to G- we're all god? :twisted:

May the force be with you
Tb

[Jundo]

A couple more 'BIG' questions ...

[The] thought that the universe might be random and unintended makes me sad. I feel that if this were the case it would have implications for life, implications that I don’t feel I can ignore. Two areas that I feel would be affected by this are the nature of suffering, and the foundation of ethics, but I do not wish to open that Pandora’s Box here...

Oh, I will open that Pandora's Box.

Even if reality were random and unintended and utterly 'pointless' (I am not saying it is, by the way ... more about that in a second), there's still a firm foundation for ethical conduct. Namely, whatever the case, we still need to all live together on this planet, and in society, and that means we should act well toward each other. God or no, societies needs rules and laws, whereby peace and safety, kindness and compassion are to be preferred for all our mutual sake.

Further to that, our Buddhist practice allows us to see that we are all connected, and are truly one. Doing violence to another being is much like your left hand punishing your right hand. It is no other than 'you' doing violence to 'you'.

As well, people who do violence, steal, abuse themselves or others are not at peace. A murderer, terrorist, rapist, gambler or jewel thief must lack within, and be suffering within. A person who knows inner peace and contentment simply will not act in such fashion. In this way, I certainly believe that human beings make "hells" for themselves, at least in this world, and in their own lives, through their harmful conduct. Questions of an afterlife aside, people certainly can create "heavens" and "hells" for themselves, and for other people around them, by their actions in this life. Thus, God or not, people should choose the course that reduces their own suffering.

I am not an atheist, but I happened to recently read a review of this book ...

Title: Atheism, Morality, and Meaning, by Michael Martin.

A professor emeritus of philosophy at Boston University, Martin [seeks to show] that morality is possible absent any assumption of the existence of any gods, to show that human life can have meaning and purpose absent those same assumptions, and to show moreover that traditional theistic beliefs don’t do a good job at grounding morality, meaning, or purpose — just what believers claim to be true about atheism.
http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews ... rality.htm

Now, on the question of 'random' 'unintended' and 'pointless', this was noted ...

So it’s not so such much that I’m demanding that the universe be other than what an atheist might say it is. It’s that the thought that it might be leaves me feeling kind of empty and futile... and not empty in the positive Buddhist sense...

Far from being "empty" and "futile", living life for the sake of living life, right in this moment, is the very essence of "full" and fulfilling".

To borrow a mountain climbing example, nothing is more ridiculous than crawling up a great hunk of rock. Or running a marathon in cirles. Or making art or writing poetry that few will see. Yet most people would consider such activities far from "empty" or "futile", and instead, living life fully. Each step by step up that mountain is complete unto itself.

When viewed as such, living life moment by moment is complete unto itself. One does so "because it is there", not because of any true destination.

You wrote:

So yeah, I kind of thought that Zazen might lead to knowing that the universe is ‘divine’ directly. Or rather, I thought Zen might help you to realise what the universe is NOT i.e. not random and not unintended! But perhaps it is true that these kind of questions simply have no answers, or that the answers given are just pretty stories, and that I have to give up this egotistical need for 'answers'. Perhaps the universe is really beyond all descriptions. Beyond the labels ‘intended’ and ‘unintended’, ‘divine’, or ‘random’. After all, if emptiness is anything, it’s surely empty of attributes. Or perhaps I’m really missing the point! I think that’s highly likely, and I thank you for your patience.

Let me say again for the record, that I do not think our being born as sentient beings, on a strange spinning ball in the middle of time and space, was something "random" and "unintended". Too much seems to have been required for that to occur, an incredible string of a priori events ... and it simply seems to me very much more likely that we should not have been born at all if the universe were truly random (I am writing a book on the subject, the incredible chain of events over the billions of years that led to our being alive to read these words now). My deep sense is that we are serving as an organ for something that requires our services.

To get back to the rowboat on the river ... I feel it is a wonder that I have awoken, alive, sitting in a rowboat in the middle of this river, oar in hand. The boat, the water and air and trees, the wood of the oar ... all seems too well matched to be mere happenstance. In a random world, I feel that I should not be sitting in this boat. In fact, I feel that I am supposed to be sitting in this boat because, quite frankly, I think that there being a boat and a river is too much a lovely outcome.

I believe the River Tao has a direction, and that this boat is meant to be sailing upon ... and is not apart from ... the river.

But when Suzuki Roshi or any religious figure of any creed says something like the following, well, they are either guessing or going on faith ... (In fact, the following from Suzuki Roshi is a very general statement, and he doesn't try to fill in the details. The Buddha also refused to fill in most of the details. Almost all religions start to go wrong when they try to fill in the details, usually based on human imagination alone):

Here is a quote by Shunryu Suzuki from Zen Mind, Beginners Mind:
‘So it is absolutely necessary for everyone to believe in nothing. But I do not mean voidness. There is something, but that something is something that is always prepared for taking some particular form, and it has some rules, or theory, or truth in its activity. This is called Buddha nature, or Buddha himself.’

I remember Suzuki saying in the same book that whatever is manifesting now is manifesting for some reason, though I can’t find the page right now...

Suzuki Roshi is making a very nebulous statement, open to wide possibilities for what the driving force may be ... And that's how Zen folks like it: open and nebulous with all life's possibilities!

Please understand my conclusion:

I think Suzuki Roshi was right, but Suzuki Roshi would also teach you that he does not need to be right ... In other words, whether we were placed in the boat with an oar, or just happened to pop up there, no matter ... get on with the trip!

I think that, since I have an oar in my hand, I was meant to row. If you were to press me, I would say that it is no accident, not in the least, that I am in a boat, alive, self-aware, with an oar in hand. In other words, since we are alive, I think that we were placed here to live, we were meant to live. I feel that in my heart. So, I row and row.

But, if it is all random and meaningless ... still, I row and row. No difference. Each stroke of the oar, like a step up the mountain, is reason enough. Beautiful enough, all on its own. So, I row and row, complete and fulfilled. Thus:

A - If there is a God, and if she had wanted us to know the details, she could have told us much more clearly (but she did not) ... so, I row row row.
B - If there is a God, but the details are too hard for a human mind to grasp ... I row row row.
C- If there is a God, and he did tell us the details (in the Koran, Bible, Upanishads or other old book), but I am just too closed minded to see it ... still, I row row row ... trying to live as best I can.
D - If there is no "God", but some other mechanism at work that uses us for purposes all its own ... I row row row
E - If there is no God or mechanism, and no details ... I row row row.
F - Whatever ... I row row row

Everything is "manifesting for a reason" (to borrow what you think Suzuki Roshi said) ... whether or not there is a "reason" apart from the manifesting itself.

If you were asking me to tell you what I think I sense, it is something like A,B or D ... not C or E. But, also I sense that it just does not matter, and I do not care.

In each case, all is fulfilled and complete.

Am I saying too much?

Gassho, Jundo

PS - You asked ...

It seems to me that what is manifesting now is manifesting for some reason. And this question has occurred to me: How could Karma exist in an unintended / random universe?

More about Karma maybe next time.