SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40133

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

    .
    I often feel that monastic practice is so "yesterday" ... so "13th Century".It's true, and in some very important ways, it may be time to knock down the monasteries, throwing their cloistered inhabitants into the streets! **

    For most of its history, lay practice has taken a back seat to the "real spiritual action" said to happen only among the ordained Sangha, usually behind monastery walls. However, this no longer need be the case.

    I in no way intend to deny the beauty and power of the monastic path for those called that way. There are depths and lessons to be encountered and awakened to and lived in that simple life, in the silence, in the sincere effort and routine. So much of that may not be easily perceived in the noise and distraction of an "in the world" practice. (Although, in my view, stillness is stillness, and the very same stillness can be encountered "out in the world" with a bit of diligence and attention to day-to-day life). I do not in any way intend to discount the importance of monastic practice for some folks ... and at appropriate times and doses for all of us.

    However, there is also a beauty and power in paths of practice outside monastery walls that may be unavailable to those within the walls, with lay practice having depths and opportunities for awakening all its own. There are aspects of an "in the world" practice that are denied to those following a monastic way. There are depths and lessons of practice that can be encountered and awakened to only out in the city streets, in our work places, families, raising kids. Where is the Dharma not present?

    Lay practice now is not the same as lay practice has been in centuries past.

    One vital reason for monasteries and the like ... from the earliest days of Buddhism ... was an absence of other chances for communication with teachers and fellow practitioners, and a lack of other means to encounter "live teachings". In other words, wandering ascetics walking hither and thither in the Buddha's time needed to gather during the rainy seasons to "touch base" and reconnect with the group after being on their own for weeks and months. In the middle ages in China and Japan, one could not easily encounter a Buddhist teacher, teachings and opportunities to practice without going to live full time in a monastery. This is just no longer the case. Members of our Treeleaf Sangha, for example, can have 24 hour contact, using modern means of communication, with teachers, teachings, sittings, robe sewing, Sutra and Text study, sharing with fellow practitioners times of sickness and health and smiles and tears, Samu, spiritual friendships, "sharp stones crashing into each other" ... much of which, until the current times, was denied to people outside monastery walls.

    In some important ways, sincere lay practitioners today may enjoy better surrounding circumstances for practice than did the average monk in, for example, Dogen's day. Things in the "Golden Age" were not so golden as we too easily romanticize. Most monks back then were half-educated (even in Buddhism), semi-literate (or what passed for literacy in those times), superstition driven, narrow folks who may have understood less about the traditions and teachings they were following ... their history and meaning and depth ... than we now know. The conditions for practice within old temples and monasteries might have been less than ideal, many teachers less than ideal, despite our idealization of the old timers. Studying Sutras by smoky oil lamp, living one's days out in Japan or Tibet while having no real information grasp on China and India and the customs of prior centuries, living in a world of rumor and magic and misunderstanding (in which all kinds of myths and stories and superstitions were taken as explanations for how the world works), unable to access a modern Buddhist library, or to "Google" a reliable source (emphasis on making sure it is reliable however!) to check some point, or to ask a real expert outside one's limited circle, being beholden to only one teacher at a time (no matter how poor a teacher), with no knowledge of the human brain and some very important discoveries of science ... and after all that effort ... getting sick and dying at the age of 40 from some ordinary fever. (Can you even imagine trying to listen to Dogen Zenji recite "live" a Shobogenzo teaching from way across the room ... without a modern microphone and PA system and "Youtube" to let one replay it all? I suppose many never heard a word!)

    The "Good Old Days" were not necessarily the "Good Old Days".

    In contrast, in many ways, the average lay person practicing today has very many better circumstances for practice than those monks in 13th century Eihei-ji. For that reason, it is time to re-evaluate the place and power of lay practice. What was true in the cultures and times of ages past need not be true today!

    Now, we need the monastic way ... and we need the "in the world way" ... supporting each other.

    Yesterday, a fellow posted to our Sangha a comment that:

    the austere training at Eihei-ji ... [may be] required in 'dropping off' body and mind. The effort required to ensure that this is complete, 'dropping off dropping off', is something I think we find difficult in our lives since we live in more comfortable times. Can it be truly 'realised' outside a monastic setting?

    I responded:


    I rather disagree.

    There are hard swimmers and runners, who push themselves to the limit ...

    There are swimmers or runners who go at an easy and balanced pace forward ...

    There are those who float along or stand perfectly still to admire the scenery ...

    ... and in all cases, it is the same ocean or road ... and no place to go.

    Some folks may benefit from a hard practice, getting the hell beat out of them ... pushed along by a tough coach like a marine in boot camp. They may need this for a bit of discipline or to tame the wild bull of the mind. And some may not, encountering the Dharma in silence and stillness.

    However, the answer really is not dependent on how hard we work for it, like a dog chasing its own tail.
    Today’s Sit-A-Long video follows at this link. It is a longer talk (about 30 minutes), part of our July Zazenkai. A short Zazen and Kinhin follow.




    **(figuratively!)

    .
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-16-2016, 02:59 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Seiryu
    Member
    • Sep 2010
    • 620

    #2
    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

    Listening to this talk now. But so far all my ego-driven jealousies have arisen! ops:

    I wish I could speak Japanese like that!!!

    I found this quote that relates to this I, although it seems kinda harsher on monastic practice, I think it is worth sharing.
    There is a Chinese saying “A low practitioner does retreat in the forest, a high practitioner does retreat in the cities”. A practitioner who moves away from the cities to do practice in the quiet and remote forest is only a low level practitioner; a high practitioner can do his practice amidst all the physical pollution and human complications of a city, he excels in that kind of environment, like a peacock who thrives on eating poisonous plants, He, is the REAL MASTER.
    Gassho

    Seiryu
    Humbly,
    清竜 Seiryu

    Comment

    • Taigu
      Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
      • Aug 2008
      • 2710

      #3
      Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

      Thank you Brother for these very necessary reminders...
      Indeed, we are extremely lucky to be able to do what we do now and the average sitter in the modern so called lay world cannot be compared to the bunch of very uneducated, rough and violent monks that use to be around monasteries in Old China and Japan.
      I would like to add that IMMO the actual walls of the monasteries should collapse for ever. Monasteries are a big part and main cause of the institutionalization of Zen throughout history. Erecting walls was a way keep the teachings inside accessible to a happy few (rather than offering ideal conditions of practice), reinforcing the idea of this is mine, my school, my territory, my possession and in the name of poverty it made part of the clerge very rich. Fights and wars took place, in Japan, Tibet and in most Buddhist countries between sects and schools. A terrible mess.
      The way training monasteries are treating people is not acceptable in my clouded eyes. All the boot camp and military treat is not part of Buddhism but very much a dark side of the Japanese heritage.
      From what I could gather, Sawaki Kodo disagreed with the system and left his post at Sojiji to live homeless and then become the abbot of the young Antaiji, a temple very open to lay people, with no kyosaku, very few useless rituals, focusing on sitting, sewing, working and the necessary takuhatsu.
      When officially asked if he wanted to become the abbot of Eiheiji, he laughed and said to the monks send by the Sotoshu: "even a dog would not take it".
      I don't know if I am a dog or not, but I don't buy this at all. Like Sawaki, I strongly refuse this system which basically takes young guys through a process from waraji (straw sandals) to BMW (temple priests).
      When one of my English sutends visited Eiheiji and did a retreat for lay people there, she was shocked by the attitude of these young monks, they were openly saying that they did not care about sitting and they would not sit again after going through the training. they had no respect for the nyohoe kesa, were obsessed by oryoki and propper rituals.

      I can see the point of having retreats and short intensive practice time but without the Japanese military twist.

      I don't see anything wrong with the army, nothing wrong with business,nothing wrong with Zen training, mixing those proves to be a real disaster.

      Just my very limited view.

      gassho


      Taigu

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 40133

        #4
        Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

        Thank you, Taigu. I agree. I even changed some of my words to make it a bitter stronger.

        Gassho, J
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Onshin
          Member
          • Jul 2010
          • 462

          #5
          Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

          I soooo agree with both of you. I even found OBC's two tier lay sangha system a bit distasteful. It reminds me of my childhood, I was brought up as a catholic and in my younger days everything was in Latin, so you did'nt really know what was happening. When it changed to English (or whatever the local language) it made it all so musc more accessable. Thats when I realised I was a Buddhist (12 yo) and only caught up in the ceremonial aspect, the same thing got me interested in Tibetan Buddhism until I found people revering the Lamas not as enlightened men and women but as demi gods with powers.

          Thank you for this teaching.(excuse the short rant)
          "This traceless enlightenment continues endlessly" (Dogen Zenji)

          Comment

          • Saijun
            Member
            • Jul 2010
            • 667

            #6
            Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

            Hello Revs. Jundo and Taigu, Onshin and Seiryu and everyone else,

            Thank you for the talk. It is always heartening to see that the "wild spark" of Buddhadharma is still here, there, and anywhere.

            Deep Gassho, and with Metta,

            Saijun
            To give up yourself without regret is the greatest charity. --RBB

            Comment

            • ghop
              Member
              • Jan 2010
              • 438

              #7
              Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

              Thanks for the talk Jundo and also for giving me a new perspective on my own practice.

              And thank you Taigu for your "limited view." It's encouraging when I hear an experienced teacher be willing to admit where tradition falls short so that those practicing today may move the wheel of the dharma forward.

              Now, I've got to go sit so that I might increase my strength for knocking down walls. :x

              gassho to my teachers and my sangha
              Greg

              Comment

              • Seishin the Elder
                Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 521

                #8
                Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

                This is not an aspect of thinking that is limited by geography or religion. In the West, after the fantastic growth of religious life in the mid 40's and into the 50's of the last century, there was a drying up. The attraction of life in the world, "drugs, sex and rock 'n roll" took its toll. Now there seems to be another surge in monastic religious vocations to the very strict cloistered (military-type) monasteries that Taigu spoke of, that exhibit a very, very traditional practice and focus. That is really a minority experience. For the most of us in the Western monastic world we are experiencing an aging of our communities, with a few vocations appearing from time to time. Our greatest growth has been with the lay groups associated with us; the so-called "Third-Orders" or "Oblates", those laypersons who wish to participate in the spiritual charism of a particular Order and monastery, but because of their circumstances cannot become monastics themselves.

                Being an Oblate is considered a "vocation" in and of itself and is in no way thought of as "less-than" any monk or nun in the monastery. It is not uncommon to find a monastery which has 12-20 monastics with a gathering of 80-100 Oblates associated with it. They are vital parts of these monasteries. Long ago they were simply groups of people who wishes to practice certain "devotions", but now they are far more active and demanding of training and formation. Some European monastic communities have gone so far as to open majority sectionsof their monasteries to permanent oblate residents, both single and married; all living together almost like a small village. My own Abbot has often said that he sees the future of our Abbey in the hands of the Oblates. So there is definitely a movement in Western monasticism toward an new inclusion and inculturation of laypeople into the real and vital life of the monastery. It actually is a very old model that was well practiced in the early church in Palestine, in Ireland and many of the monastics establishments of the early medieval age.


                So perhaps in some cases there is not so much a need to "knck down the monastery walls" as there is to open the doors and leave them open to anyone to enter.

                Gassho,

                Seishin Kyrill

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40133

                  #9
                  Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

                  Hi Fr. K.

                  I think it important to say that my criticism was directed exclusively toward attitudes regarding traditional Buddhist monasticism, not in any way Christian monasticism (a subject that I know little about, and which is really unrelated to the topic). My theme was the traditional idea in much (not all) of Asian Buddhism throughout the centuries that the "real action" could only happen in a monastic setting, not in "at home" and lay practice.

                  I do not, in any way, mean to throw over the wall Christian monastics such as yourself, and don't want to be seen as talking about any subject beyond my limited scope!

                  Gassho, Jundo
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Geika
                    Treeleaf Unsui
                    • Jan 2010
                    • 4981

                    #10
                    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

                    "...Since, my friend, you have revealed your deepest fears, I order you to be exposed before your peers! Tear down the wall!" --Roger Waters
                    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                    Comment

                    • Taigu
                      Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                      • Aug 2008
                      • 2710

                      #11
                      Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

                      Thank you so much Seishin Kyrill,

                      Just like my brother Jundo I don't know about the Christian situation.
                      Nevertheless, I truly find your direction inspiring. As walls are knocked down, communication, dance, meeting... can take place.
                      It also works that way. Outside in.

                      Thank you for this teaching, brother, it opened my clouded eye.


                      gassho


                      T.

                      Comment

                      • Kyonin
                        Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
                        • Oct 2010
                        • 6745

                        #12
                        Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

                        Jundo and Taigu,

                        First of all, thank you for this teaching. Deep in my heart I have always thought just the same about the closeness of Buddhism and Zen.

                        Living here in Mexico is very difficult sometimes for a Buddhist. This is a 98% Catholic country and there is little mind about other religions or acceptance of diversity. There are very few Buddhist temples let alone Zendo.

                        I have always been a Buddhist, even before I knew Buddhism existed. Thanks to Aikido and Karate-Do I came to learn more about our philosophy and started to come close to the Dharma. Eventually I tended to weekly practice to the Triratna chapter in Mexico City, but I moved to a smaller town and here there is just no Buddhism at all.

                        So deep in my heart I have always wanted to practice zen and being able to study and become part of Treeleaf is exactly what I was looking for. Being in this wonderful Sangha has changed the way I see learning and practice. I couldn't be happier.

                        Again, thank you for this teaching.
                        Hondō Kyōnin
                        奔道 協忍

                        Comment

                        • Hoyu
                          Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 2020

                          #13
                          Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

                          Thank you for this gem of a teaching Jundo Sensei!

                          I once fell into the trap of romanticizing monastic life as being somehow "better" than lay practice.
                          Now through the many wise lessons I have learned from the teachers and members of Treeleaf my view has changed drastically! And not just on this issue alone!

                          This talk is a definitive reminder of the beauty of a Dharma which cannot be confined by walls of any nature!

                          Gassho,
                          John

                          PS. I loved having the talk in Japanese and English! Hopefully we can keep our Japanese sitters around long enough to all become fluent!
                          Ho (Dharma)
                          Yu (Hot Water)

                          Comment

                          • Heisoku
                            Member
                            • Jun 2010
                            • 1338

                            #14
                            Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

                            Hello Jundo and Taigu
                            In Jundo's teisho what struck me was the realisation that we now have such enormous access to literature...even more than in the past. It makes what you, we, I, are doing here at Treeleaf so powerful.
                            However you mentioned sesshin as an important practice and this is a difficult practice for those of us with current time-spaced tied responsibilities. It in this aspect that perhaps we cannot find the depths of zazen as well as we could in the more intense practice of sesshin (or as a monastic!).
                            Hopefully at some future point when responsibilities free up we may be able to join the Treeleaf roving sesshin wherever they may occur.
                            Heisoku 平 息
                            Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 40133

                              #15
                              Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

                              Originally posted by Nigel99
                              However you mentioned sesshin as an important practice and this is a difficult practice for those of us with current time-spaced tied responsibilities. It in this aspect that perhaps we cannot find the depths of zazen as well as we could in the more intense practice of sesshin (or as a monastic!).
                              Oh, I rather disagree.

                              We sit with what is, our life circumstances. If in a hospital bed, a wheelchair, on a golden throne or a cloud ... that is what is, practice there. If one truly cannot attend a retreat or Sesshin, then that is life ... just what is. Sesshin is important and not to be missed ... but also times of taking two weeks nursing a sick relative in the hospital can be our "Sesshin" ... practice that. Pierce that "just what is" to the depthless depths!

                              Or, in more mundane words ... one does not need to go away to tennis camp to play tennis. 8)

                              Now, retreats and Sesshin (sleep away tennis camp) are a very good environment. If you can swing it, ideally, at least one (1) longer Retreat or 'Sesshin' of a few days or a week in length, sitting from before dawn to late at night ... each year is greatly recommended.

                              Now, someone might ask too, "if each moment is all time and space, what is the purpose of an intensive Sesshin?" Well, I often say that, sometimes, we need to practice a bit long and hard, morning to night ... sitting and wrestling with 'me, my self and I' ... all to achieve nothing to attain! Going to Retreats, Sesshin and such is a powerful facet of this Practice and not to be missed.

                              So, saying that "I'm too busy and cannot find the time or money" is one thing ... if it is truly true. If truly true, then sit with that to the depthless depths. But if it is only a matter that "I am saving my money for a new ipod and prefer a vacation at the beachfront hotel" ... or is just plain lazy or intimidated ... get thy butt to Sesshin!

                              Gassho, J
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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